tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post193897867284387946..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: A Reality Check Must Be Grounded In RealityRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger99125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-29543431349608178862009-11-21T08:36:15.052-08:002009-11-21T08:36:15.052-08:00Arthur Dent writes:
"look to you guys for exp...Arthur Dent writes:<br />"look to you guys for expert rail knowledge, but I’m beginning to realize that it’s only forthcoming if it favors the HSR system. Very disappointing."<br /><br />This blog is a propaganda vehicle for HSR in California. Robert has never claimed otherwise -- he does say it is not officially affiliated with the CHSRA and no funding from them has been provided. Rumors I keep hearing, say the Robert is hoping to use this blog as a stepping stone to political office. He is on the very far left of the Democratic party views.<br /><br />Rafael is more independent, and his input is the only reason I bother to visit and comment in this site. His knowledge is immense and he on few occasions will actually have a few bad words to say about the Authority. <br /><br />The project is in very deep trouble right now --- funding is not to be found. How much longer it can continue was a major reason why they needed a PR firm to try and boost appeal to the California voters, who unfortunately and without knowingly passed Prop 1A.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76080549491636904802009-11-20T11:41:32.790-08:002009-11-20T11:41:32.790-08:00I look to you guys for expert rail knowledge, but ...<i>I look to you guys for expert rail knowledge, but I’m beginning to realize that it’s only forthcoming if it favors the HSR system. Very disappointing.</i><br /><br />Melodramatic much?<br /><br />The issues that people are complaining about, the expensive ones, ie: grade separations, aerials, berlin walls, headpsans, noise, 4-tracking, FSSF vs SFFS operation, are identical whether or not Caltrain ends up picking EMUs with floor heights at 36" or 48", or european-width, US-width, or Japanese-width loading gauges.<br /><br />As Mylnarik is happy to point out, it makes no sense for Caltrain to pick a platform height and loading gauge different than HSR, but even if they did, it's an operational flexibility issue, not so much a cost issue.<br /><br />A caltrain line providing the same level of service as the proposed HSR + Caltrain line is going to cost nearly or just as much, and have the same set of problems that a HSR line does.<br /><br />Again, what does it matter if the trains are painted with "Caltrain" on the side or "CAHSR"?<br /><br />If your proposal is to have those caltrain trains run slower, and have less of them, then your proposal is not "equivalent".Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-20932277811112283572009-11-20T01:06:09.433-08:002009-11-20T01:06:09.433-08:00Based on their expert opinion, it appears that add...<em>Based on their expert opinion, it appears that adding HSR to the Caltrain corridor introduces unique -- and costly -- design problems which Caltrain would not have if it were to handle the HSR load by itself</em>.<br /><br />Based on their propensity to assume the worst. Railroads all over the world run multiple levels of service using the same tracks and platforms. Even NJTransit and Amtrak manage to do it. The other commuter systems that share track with Amtrak manage to do it too.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14968885993310060892009-11-19T22:56:07.048-08:002009-11-19T22:56:07.048-08:00@Matthew: But CalTrain won't be able to upgrad...<i>@Matthew: But CalTrain won't be able to upgrade to anything near HSR service without making the exact same changes needed FOR HSR service!</i><br /><br />That’s not what we’re hearing from Clem and Rafael. They’re notably silent in this particular thread, but here’s what they’ve had to say in the past. <br /><br />Clem, on <a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/09/platform-height.html" rel="nofollow">platform heights</a>:<br /><i>One can easily see where this is all headed, based on the figure at left: with bi-level EMUs, Caltrain is likely to end up with an entry floor height in the low twenty inches, while HSR will end up in the forties. The non-negotiable requirement for level boarding would result in two different and incompatible platform heights.</i><br /><br />In that same thread Rafael said: <br /><i>Note that if Caltrain and HSR trains are to share platform tracks, it's not just the floor height above the rails that needs to be harmonized.<br /><br />The two services must also purchase rolling stock of similar <b>CAR BODY WIDTH</b>, with the narrower model(s) possibly equipped with retractable floor boards to bridge the gap. Incompatible widths would mean wider trains could not use platform tracks designed for narrower ones, even to just pass through in an off-design condition.</i><br /><br />Rafael, answering a question to Adirondacker:<br /><i>Clem has argued in favor of FSSF track order throughout and island platforms for all Caltrain-only stations. Such changes would involve some eminent domain and substantially more disruption than a relatively straightforward change of platform height.</i><br /><br />(Clem has a <a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2008/12/slow-traffic-keep-left.html" rel="nofollow"> separate thread</a> dedicated to the intricacies of carefully designing the track order to accommodate two different services, speeds and dimensions.)<br /><br />Based on their expert opinion, it appears that adding HSR to the Caltrain corridor introduces unique -- and costly -- design problems which Caltrain would not have if it were to handle the HSR load by itself.<br /><br />I look to you guys for expert rail knowledge, but I’m beginning to realize that it’s only forthcoming if it favors the HSR system. Very disappointing.Arthur Denthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16780821836930957657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-24902434127527011832009-11-19T13:20:49.373-08:002009-11-19T13:20:49.373-08:00Anon, could you not post the same three comments o...Anon, could you not post the same three comments on multiple threads?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73977917041207435312009-11-19T06:16:27.864-08:002009-11-19T06:16:27.864-08:00@ Alon Levy -
"[Caltrain] electrification is...@ Alon Levy -<br /><br />"[Caltrain] electrification is going to happen anyway."<br /><br />Uhm, actually it isn't and that was one reason CHSRA ended up selecting the Caltrain corridor.<br /><br />San Francisco and San Mateo counties had already pledged to fund respective shares of the electrification project. However, Santa Clara county has essentially ignored the PCJPB decision to electrify and decided to fund BART to Silicon Valley instead, because its priorities are:<br /><br />(a) relieving commute traffic on I-880 in the East Bay and,<br /><br />(b) fostering commercial development in the downtown-midtown area of San Jose. This includes the area near SJ Diridon, but the city is apparently convinced that the worker bees for all those new office towers will still predominantly hail from its eastern districts and the East Bay, rather than from SF or the SF peninsula.<br /><br />This is also why the Altamont Corridor is being couched as an opportunity for improved commuter service into San Jose only.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-18700937284967777022009-11-18T22:09:45.432-08:002009-11-18T22:09:45.432-08:00Heck, that'll work for residents living in the...Heck, that'll work for residents living in the Westchester area near LAX and any other place where public projects are going around!<br /><br />All apartment tenants near these NIMBY areas should be given free homes (no mortgage) with free relocation expenses. They'll move out quickly! <br /><br />Think about it. These guys are butt poor; they'll pick up on anything that'll change their lives. <br /><br />It'll be like winning a lottery to them: get the heck out of their crappy lifestyle to a nice home with no more rent to pay! They get to keep their jobs, live in a home with no mortgage to pay so all the money they make from their shitty jobs can go to extra spending of consipicous goods and it'll help the economy.<br /><br />Give these NIMBYs a sweet deal that'll make them want to move. It's gonna be an offer of a lifetime to them and they'll be stupid to pass up on that offer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-59916496013299121312009-11-18T22:00:34.041-08:002009-11-18T22:00:34.041-08:00Heck that's a brilliant idea.
The government ...Heck that's a brilliant idea.<br /><br />The government should just create a front company and build condos near the sea. <br /><br />It'll look like some real estate developer is building condos for the rich, when in fact it's for trade deal with the NIMBYs for their crappy homes to a nice property. Put an upfront price tag of $4 million per room. If a willing buyer want to buy it, it'll be sold as state revenue.<br /><br />Once the NIMBYs move, the area will be a deserted wasteland that is up for grabs. Once again, a front company can buy these empty homes and fence them off for further development. That further development will be laying down tracks for HSR!!<br /><br /><br />Man, I would be a kick ass totalitarian dictator! People should just STFU and put me as head of state! LOLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68836126688031939702009-11-18T21:50:51.571-08:002009-11-18T21:50:51.571-08:00The problem with dealing with these NIMBYs is beca...The problem with dealing with these NIMBYs is because the government is not making a sweet deal towards NIMBYs end.<br /><br />Just build a bunch of nice condos near the sea, give these NIMBYs a deal to trade in their shitty worthless homes for a nice condo with an oceanfront view plus moving expenses, and people will move out in no time. Tack on a lifetime pass of high-speed rail and priority in getting a HSR job when it gets built and they'll just shut up and leave.<br /><br />Take that offer, or stay there until bulldozers come and roll over your dead body. <br /><br />Pick a choice. I'm sure a lot of NIMBYs will take the former deal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57812426515843334632009-11-18T21:46:11.208-08:002009-11-18T21:46:11.208-08:00@Red Anon (which I think you should use as a handl...@Red Anon (which I think you should use as a handle): <br /><br />The Chinese method works great when the leadership gets it right, not so much when they screw it up. I'll take our NIMBYs (even Toys) over their political prisoners any day.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25403418671684042642009-11-18T21:45:21.073-08:002009-11-18T21:45:21.073-08:00Various Anons:
The current plan is for the high-s...Various Anons:<br /><br />The current plan is for the high-speed line to terminate in San Jose anyway. North of San Jose, HSR will run on the legacy Caltrain corridor, upgraded to 200 km/h. Once those lines are connected, there's no reason to terminate the trains in SJ, instead of send them onward to SF at lower speed.<br /><br />The only novelties here are grade separations, and four-tracking. Electrification is going to happen anyway. And neither four-tracking nor grade separation is a very big deal, since the Caltrain corridor is wide enough for tracks for 94% of its length, and since grade separation only requires a few kilometers' worth of els.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17564021830624154812009-11-18T21:44:00.198-08:002009-11-18T21:44:00.198-08:00I'm convinced that logic doesn't work for ...I'm convinced that logic doesn't work for some people, and I'm also convinced that many of these NIMBYs don't even live near the tracks. I've had the displeasure of spending the night recently at a friends house who lives along the metrolink tracks here in SoCal, the ones south of anaheim that may or may not be on an Irvine extension. Let me tell you, nothing is as bad as those horns. 2-3 120 Db horns in the middle of the night that you can hear coming from miles away blowing their horns in their FRA-mandated short-long-long-short pattern at every freaking grade crossing, vs a bunch of 70-80 Db trains during the day that go by in about 10 seconds? You've got to be kidding me if you think that HSR is going to make things worse. It just defies logic. And yes, Mlynarik, I have been near a HSR train at speed and it's nothing like a mile-long, twin engine diesel freight train.<br /><br />The people I know who live there are adamant that all they care about is getting rid of the "f*cking horns" (their words, sorry Rafael/Robert). These are people who live ON THE TRACKS. HSR is an improvement on the peninsula, and fast, reliable caltrain connecting to it is key.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2614072090669657642009-11-18T21:39:42.972-08:002009-11-18T21:39:42.972-08:00See, all this talk is just pure nonsense. Go with ...See, all this talk is just pure nonsense. Go with the Chinese method. STFU and build, screw the human and environmental toll!! <br /><br />No wonder the Chinese are owning us: they're really productive in getting things done in a fast, efficient, and the most practical way: "Less talkin' more doin'"<br /><br />Both parties of California should just STFU and not adhere to NIMBYs and lobbyists. This is an all go-for project. <br /><br />What are the benefits? It puts people back to work immediately. It gets stuff built really fast with minimal cost overrun. It'll create lots of permanent jobs to man the stations and run these trains. Maintenance workers gain experience in repairing these railcars so oneday we can start building our own purely American made high speed rail trains. It reduces greenhouse gases and our reliance on foreign oil. It'll introduce a real third reliable alternative to flying and driving. It'll compete with the airlines that are nickel and diming us to death. <br /><br />Any idiot can see these benefits. Why waste talking this over and over again, wasting time and taxes in the process?<br /><br /><br />As I stated before, I don't give a rats ass where his HSR is positioned. I just want it to be built NOW. Not twenty years later, but NOW!!<br /><br /><br />Does anyone give a shit about some desert lizard's habitat being ruined? Does anyone give a shit about some millionaire douche-bag worrying about HSR going near their multi-million dollar mansion (which they got by screwing everyone left and right?)? Does anyone care about some poor illegals homes being leveled (they shouldn't be here anyway!)<br /><br /><br />Heck, just give me a bulldozer and the secret backdoor immunity deal and I'll start plowing through the route path immediately!! LOL!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-29060557840721538452009-11-18T21:26:47.679-08:002009-11-18T21:26:47.679-08:00And no, its not a big fat ROW that can fit four tr...<i>And no, its not a big fat ROW that can fit four tracks, which is the entire point really.</i><br /><br />You are <a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/03/why-they-chose-caltrain-corridor.html" rel="nofollow">factually incorrect</a>.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-83839264396689126052009-11-18T20:26:55.592-08:002009-11-18T20:26:55.592-08:00Hi, I'm a anon that posted only twice. Anyway...Hi, I'm a anon that posted only twice. Anyways, the way you describe it All Aboard! makes it sound so wonderful t travel by train. And it's true! I've had the pleasure of taking both the Acela and the Eurostar in the past couple years. Even though the Acela isn't all that fast, I found it to be a wonderful travel experience from beginning to end. Imagine having a "true" high-speed rail system here. Although, I do think the CHSRA should try to cut the travel time between LA and SF down to a little under 2hrs 30min. This could be accomplished using Bombardier's Zefiro 380 whcih can cruise at speeds of up to 236 mph, 16 mph faster than what CHSRA is currently planning. And there's also a new Korean train in the planning stages that will be able to cruise at speeds of up to 250 mph!HSRforCalinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-46038531653269842122009-11-18T19:14:03.808-08:002009-11-18T19:14:03.808-08:00@ALL ABOARD!
I read somewhere that only 2% of the ...@ALL ABOARD!<br />I read somewhere that only 2% of the entire population of the U.S. has ever been on a train, so I can understand their ignorance of the advantages of train travel. And many are so single-person- occupancy-vehicle oriented that they cannot even conceive the concept of taking a cab or having someone else give them a ride to the station.swing hangernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-81193449242199169002009-11-18T19:03:19.955-08:002009-11-18T19:03:19.955-08:00taking a cab from redwood city or mountain view or...taking a cab from redwood city or mountain view or atherton, to the nearest hsr station is much faster and much cheaper than going to the nearest airport, and ad that to the fact that you show up 15-20 minutes, buy your ticket, get on the train and you're off, versus schlepping hundreds of yards through an airport, TSA, to the gate, wait at the gate, do the "rows 900-2000" cattle call thing, down the aisle do the carry on bag stuff, god that whole process is the sh-tiest ( sorry rafael) most uncivilized, infuriating, process on earth. They may as well tie us and down and give us enemas and beat us with sticks..... anyway meanwhile on the train the train is off and running env before you reach your seat. no " no electronic devices" waiting period, just total comfort and full amenities at 220mph and you don't even know youre moving.<br />2.5 hours, enough time to get some work done, have lunch, take a 3 way call, and when you arrive all the doors open and you exit in about 30 seconds, and you're in a cab within 5 minutes rather that doing the whole 30 minute deplaning process and terminal schlepp all over again. <br /><br />I mean do you people not get the difference between the two types of travel experience or what?<br /><br />Are americans so used to living in a completely disfunctional country that you don't know how to act any more?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2681793380751004372009-11-18T18:53:44.887-08:002009-11-18T18:53:44.887-08:00and duh, anyone heard of a cab?
I mean if I live ...and duh, anyone heard of a cab?<br /><br />I mean if I live in menlo park, and I need to get to LA, I can drive to SFO, or I can drive to SJC, or I can take a supershuttle (lengthy) or a cab to the airport$$$$, but a cab ride from MP to the hsr station nearby, quick, easy cheap, the guy helps me get my bag out of the trunk, bam, simple.10 mintues Im on the train at my seat with my bloody mary and my laptopAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76589232788919041012009-11-18T18:53:08.745-08:002009-11-18T18:53:08.745-08:00Anon @6:37
Where does your claim that the ROW can...Anon @6:37<br /><br />Where does your claim that the ROW can't fit 4 tracks come from? Have you gone out and measured it yourself and determined, based on your vast knowledge of the technical requirements for railroads that 4 tracks can't fit? Really?<br /><br />No. With >75' in most places, there is plenty of room for four tracks. And I don't recall much, if any, of that insufficient space being in the PA area (most of it is in San Mateo and Redwood City AFAIK).Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45693451777139941772009-11-18T18:47:00.713-08:002009-11-18T18:47:00.713-08:00It's highly probable that the CalTrain capacit...It's highly probable that the CalTrain capacity increase required for carrying all of HSR's passengers to SF would require 4 tracks in many sections anyway. The Baby Bullet system has its limits, you know.<br /><br />It's really not so much a question of build/no build, so much as build now or build later.<br /><br />Besides, CHSRA is right that terminating in SJ would effectively kill ridership. If people have to transfer from HSR to CalTrain, and then to local transit to get to their destination, do you really think it will be attractive? It's not worth killing the project because of a few whiners who are afraid of change and won't accept a minor visual impact (all other impacts being more or less equivalent to current conditions).Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-10970295367967837622009-11-18T18:43:51.634-08:002009-11-18T18:43:51.634-08:00So Anon@6:35 is claiming to oppose the high speed ...So Anon@6:35 is claiming to oppose the high speed train, not because of any changes to the right of way, but only because it's being done by CAHSRA.<br /><br />I have an easy solution to YOUR problem: Let's let CalTrain run the high speed train! yay!Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14390949130117185392009-11-18T18:43:11.202-08:002009-11-18T18:43:11.202-08:00One or more anons said stuff like:
Caltrain stati...<b>One or more anons said stuff like:<br /></b><br /><i>Caltrain stations are not conventient at all except for those within walking distance.<br /><br />It'll be much cheaper and easier to not take HSR to SF because of construction costs and because the NIMBYs are so disruptive.<br /></i><br /><br />I suggest you take your car and drive on over to a Caltrain station some weekday morning and check out how full the parking lot is there. I can tell you from my experience commuting on it, that lots of people drive to the stations to take the train. The fact that it is closer to downtowns and El Camino makes it <i>more</i> convenient IMHO for people to access directly from their homes than an alternate location you've hypothetically proposed along 101, IMHO.<br /><br /><br />As for stopping in SJ, you say it will be cheaper for the project. But think how much easier it will be to sell HSR tickets that advertise one seat from LA to SF compared to a ticket from LA to SJ. Sure, there will be takers, but this system needs to make some operating profit too. And you probably know that CAHSR has been sold to the California voter as a system from LA to SF, and Californians approved that idea! I don't think you can discount the will of the people so easily.<br /><br /><br />Regarding the ability of NIMBYs to disrupt, harrass and annoy those working on the project... Well, people opposed to this HSR system are free to voice their opposition in whatever constructive or appropriate or churlish ways they want to. Opposition is expected; differing views are encouraged to be expressed. But I'm pretty sure that critical NIMBY voices are not a surprise and will not just by nature of their expression derail the project.<br /><br />There is a political way for the NIMBYs to kill this project. It involves legislation, which requires a coalition of support. But local opposition in and of itself can't kill it. A certain amount is to be expected in a project like this, unfortunately.<br /><br /><br />As for the HSR loyalists -- keep feeding your friends with the meme that we have to kill the 2/3 rule! Minority rights is one thing, but granting budgetary veto power to the party that keeps <i>losing</i> elections is just plain stupid. Come on, majority dems -- don't be afraid to throw your weight around! Why the hell do we keep electing them anyway? (Just picture all the republicans reading this now and <i>laughing.</i>)Dan S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-4015669210725533952009-11-18T18:37:43.276-08:002009-11-18T18:37:43.276-08:00And no, its not a big fat row that can fit four tr...And no, its not a big fat row that can fit four tracks, which is the entire point really. Without HSR, no need for 4 tracks. And HSR won't force 4 tracks through there anyway without more WAY money than they can muster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-75488230115160631882009-11-18T18:35:31.591-08:002009-11-18T18:35:31.591-08:00No, the caltrain system is already there - and wha...No, the caltrain system is already there - and what they 'build' on to it is their business. No reason on earth for CHSRA to insert their demands (or their funding) there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40142705471093719302009-11-18T17:53:50.252-08:002009-11-18T17:53:50.252-08:00Real argument for No Build being
1)that SF to SJ i...<i>Real argument for No Build being<br />1)that SF to SJ is already served by a viable passenger rail system, 2) that system can and will be upgraded to speeds that will be practically identical to to HSR's operating speeds along this portion, 3) could be electrified by Caltrain who could easiy qualify for federal grants for this purpose as easily as CHSR, 4) that the SJ connection between Caltrain and HSR could be made to be as simple and no hassle as crossing a platform for passengers, 5) the incremental benefit gained by mid-peninsula HSR stop is negligible, particularly given the massive costs (and fights) for building mid-peninsula stops that will ensue, 6)and the whopper being that avoidance of HSR though the Peninsula would save CHSR BILLIONS and get the Nimby's out of CHSRA's hair immediately.<br /><br />Would the nimby's go to work on Caltrain electrification/grade crossing impact issues, you bet. Would that be CHSRA's problem. Nope. CHSRA could go on their merry way building their system, and cirlce back when they're done (in about 40 years) to get any remaining Caltrain issues mopped up.</i><br /><br />So, the "no-build" option is to build a caltrain system that looks just like CAHSR, but with caltrain painted on the side? How on earth is that "no-build"? Where are the peninsula NIMBYs going to come up with the billions required to fund those improvements? The rest of the state is giving the peninsula a big fat kwanza present of electrified, grade-separated and vastly improved caltrain. That's part of the reason the peninsula ROW was chosen, because there's a heavily used commuter line that is begging for improvements, and a big fat ROW that can fit four tracks.<br /><br />As a taxpayer in another part of the state, you're welcome.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.com