tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post208276767181017223..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Sunday Open Thread - From San DiegoRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-65582067851603842462009-11-17T18:24:57.878-08:002009-11-17T18:24:57.878-08:00Anon, I wouldn't read too much into the failur...Anon, I wouldn't read too much into the failure to cite 186 or 220 mph as a top speed. Amtrak could just be rounding in English units out of habit. If you wanted to be snarky, you could say that their schedules are all rounded to the nearest 10 minutes, too.<br /><br />It's possible the FRA would try to impose regulations that don't exist outside North America. But not all FRA regulations are about collisions with freight trains. Some apply even to railroads that are completely separated from all other traffic, like PATH and the Staten Island Railway. I know for a fact they make it impossible to run unmodified rapid transit equipment - I'm not sure about off-the-shelf mainline trains, though.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-67617853736085018322009-11-17T09:44:36.815-08:002009-11-17T09:44:36.815-08:00my point is that Amtrak seems to believe that with...<i>my point is that Amtrak seems to believe that with the new requirement for freight PTC, the FRA will consider train control to provide guaranteed time separation, which obviates the need for buff strength.</i><br /><br />You're reading too much that you want to believe into what they wrote. From the report you linked to:<br /><br /><b>Deployment of next generation equipment, which will need to be developed in partnership with the supply industry and the FRA over the coming years, will also help sustain reliable operations by minimizing disruption due to mechanical failures. Estimates assume the next generation of equipment operates at 180 mph to 200 mph, compared to a maximum operating speed today of 150 mph, with no significant infrastructure-related costs associated with barrier or other grade separation that are a<br />14<br />potential requirement when trains operate at very high speeds above track class 7 / 160 mph.</b><br /><br />If they were looking at leaping to existing non-FRA compatible equipment, by using PTC to create a time-separation environment, they would have quoted the usual HSR equipment top speeds of 186-220mph. Hence the more logical conclusion to leap to is that Amtrak is looking at modified equip that would be lighter than Acela but heavier than existing Euro/Asian trains, in order to meet all or some of the FRA-compatible requirements. One rumor of thumb that's been floating around lately is that one or more of the existing Euro/Asian HSR designs can be upgraded (or perhaps more accurately downgraded) to meet FRA requirements, but with a roughly 10% reduction in top speeds account of heavier weight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19995016104008145002009-11-17T07:59:19.928-08:002009-11-17T07:59:19.928-08:00Qualcomm really isn't any better than the airp...Qualcomm really isn't any better than the airport. Plus it's farther from downtown.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90822140967255335402009-11-17T04:52:12.798-08:002009-11-17T04:52:12.798-08:00Back to San Diego?
Joey is absolutely right. With ...Back to San Diego?<br />Joey is absolutely right. With its limited market, proximity to LAX and airport constraints, San Diego is a destination, not a transit point to air transport. An HSR station at Lindbergh has no purpose.<br /><br />Qualcom, served by a well-designed transfer to lightrail and/or extension to downtown would be far faster and have much higher utility to more people.<br />The problem is that local interests have decided that HSR exists only to bring cash to their "Destination Lindbergh" project.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Joey wrote:<br />"There is no point of having an airport stop if the only purpose is to get people from SAN to downtown. There are already plans to put light rail and COASTER stops at Lindbergh; a 1.5 mile HSR trip makes little-no sense at all. The airport HSR station becomes dead weight, only serving a few people in Escondido who want to get to the airport."Daddiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02875242136528653808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-665128531127852102009-11-16T23:35:35.645-08:002009-11-16T23:35:35.645-08:00@anon, nevertheless, you may as well change par...@anon, nevertheless, you may as well change parties since your strong point seems to be making baseless accusations.<br />sounds to me like someone who, because they are mad about some particular aspect of the project that didns't go there way, they are mad at the whole thing and must find faults where none exist<br /><br />There is no secret plan of deception here. As as some one who works for the railroad and may well work for hsr, fingers crossed, I have paid attention to this project and there haven't been any surprises. When I voted for prop 1A, I knew the route would be up the caltrain row, I knew it would be via pacheco and tehachapi and that it would stop in the valley towns, and I knew there would be nimby opposition, and I new to expect certain delays due to politics, and I had i feeling the feds would kick in, which, ta da, they are planning to do, and I knew that it would take time to get things rolling before we turn dirt.<br /><br />So I don't know what you were reading, or who you were listening too, or at what stage you became confused, oh excuse me, "deceived" but i have never been in touch with anything but reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-12024620320891948492009-11-16T19:30:39.957-08:002009-11-16T19:30:39.957-08:00@ Peter -
well, if your choice were to deal with ...@ Peter -<br /><br />well, if your choice were to deal with "fellow" Republicans in Sacramento and posing for manly photo-ops with the troops, you'd probably be heading half-way across the world, too ;^)<br /><br />As a naturalized citizen, Schwarzenegger is barred from running for POTUS or VPOTUS in 2012 and, he would have zero chance of mounting a successful challenge to Barbara Boxer in 2010. My take: this is the beginning of his loooong farewell tour. With the state budget horribly constrained, expect more hobnobbing between now and Jan 3, 2011, when his second and final term expires.<br /><br />Politically, I don't expect he'll fight for much of anything between now and then, except perhaps aganst new taxes and for the controversial $11 billion water bond. He <i>is</i> a Republican from LA, after all.<br /><br />Let's hope whoever succeeds him will be a more outspoken proponent of California HSR and smart population growth in the central portion of the Central Valley.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-74999172558606006782009-11-16T19:10:25.621-08:002009-11-16T19:10:25.621-08:00Iraq is one of the few places where the US flag fl...Iraq is one of the few places where the US flag flies that is more screwed up than California. He could visit Michigan or Nevada, but that would look insensitive.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-9237936608000946692009-11-16T18:49:17.871-08:002009-11-16T18:49:17.871-08:00OT, but what the @%$# is the Guvernator doing in I...OT, but what the @%$# is the Guvernator doing in IRAQ??? Don't we have more important things going on in CA? I understand that he needs a vacation occasionally, but does he have to prove his manhood by visiting Iraq? What does a visit to Iraq do for anyone other than him?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-83190020592080587042009-11-16T18:18:10.831-08:002009-11-16T18:18:10.831-08:00@ Alon Levy -
we all hope that FRA will use the r...@ Alon Levy -<br /><br />we all hope that FRA will use the requirement to implement PTC to define a regulatory path toward mixed traffic, i.e. heavy freight and light passenger trains sharing track.<br /><br />However, H.R. 2095(110th) a.k.a. PRIIA failed to mandate a specific technical standard for that implementation or, to properly fund the effort.<br /><br />Absent industry agreement on the technology, FRA evidently feels it doesn't own the process of migrating to an active safety paradigm. Therefore, it is not (yet) in a position to provide planning security to those passenger rail operators that need to replace aging rolling stock and would dearly like to buy modern, efficient, off-the-shelf but non-compliant rolling stock.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.usrailcar.com/" rel="nofollow">US Railcar</a>, the successor company to Colorado Railcar, may profit from this uncertainty for a while. It manufactures the only FRA-compliant DMU products on the market.<br /><br />While heavier than the foreign-built UIC-compliant alternatives, these are at least much lighter than existing consists pulled by diesel-electric locomotives. For commuter and regional applications involving frequent stops, that translates to at least limited relief from high fuel cost and brake wear.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77439044004042602932009-11-16T18:14:22.624-08:002009-11-16T18:14:22.624-08:00@ Anon @ 5:45
Well, my counterpoint is that you h...@ Anon @ 5:45<br /><br />Well, my counterpoint is that you have offered nothing to support your own unsubstantiated claims of exaggeration by the Authority. Therefore, no need by me to answer your claims.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64104956830018894652009-11-16T18:02:27.373-08:002009-11-16T18:02:27.373-08:00@ anon @ 4:15pm -
I'm aware that some subway ...@ anon @ 4:15pm -<br /><br />I'm aware that some subway operators are switching to trainsets, or "boa trains" as you call them. This permits a <a href="http://www.e24.fr/multimedia/archive/00007/francilien_interieur__7935b.jpg" rel="nofollow">door-free aisle</a> that runs the length of the train and encourages passengers to distribute themselves accordingly. If a car's HVAC system fails, those of the adjacent cars can compensate to some extent. The lack of doors also means passengers can more easily move toward the end of the train in the event of a tunnel fire. <br /><br />However, this sub-thread was kicked off by a discussion of replacing the BART fleet over the next decade. As you can clearly see in this <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/BART_C1_interior.jpg" rel="nofollow">photo</a>, existing BART cars feature sliding doors at the ends, as well as two dedicated bogies (not shown).<br /><br />This old-fashioned concept proved invaluable just recently when the Bay Bridge had to be closed for several days because an earlier repair on the old east span had failed. BART staff quickly boosted network capacity by increasing consist length by one car, the maximum possible given existing platform lengths.<br /><br />Even if BART were to switch to trainsets with door-free aisles, it would have the choice of conventional cars and articulated designs with shorter, wider car bodies supported by Jacobs bogies. Consists based on the former can be reconfigured in a stabling yard, though it involves more work than basic coupling and yard switching.<br /><br />Articulated trainsets offer greater stiffness, including better protection against jackknifing in the event of a derailment. However, they can only be broken apart in heavy maintenance yards since the work requires the installation of temporary <a href="http://www.web-trains.com/poste/poste_2.jpg" rel="nofollow">end bogies</a>.<br /><br />As always, there are trade-offs.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-34938556308661476602009-11-16T18:00:22.433-08:002009-11-16T18:00:22.433-08:00Rafael, my point is that Amtrak seems to believe t...Rafael, my point is that Amtrak seems to believe that with the new requirement for freight PTC, the FRA will consider train control to provide guaranteed time separation, which obviates the need for buff strength.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38735846704942559922009-11-16T17:54:46.091-08:002009-11-16T17:54:46.091-08:00I believe the high speed train need only deliver a...I believe the high speed train need only deliver a fifth of the stated benefits to be a worthwhile project to build at twice the stated cost. <br /><br />It will be the first major step to decouple our transportation costs from the cost of oil - and when the economy recovers and we're back at $200/barrel oil, that sort of planning will be viewed as downright sage.Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-48702294858647235342009-11-16T17:45:57.472-08:002009-11-16T17:45:57.472-08:00Peter if you have a counterpoint to make, make it....Peter if you have a counterpoint to make, make it. The original point, specifically that CHSRA is untrustworthy (with its lowballed costs, and overinflated benefits, including wild job creation projections, among other "misinformation" is peddles), and it will become an embarassement to the administration and any other politician that fails to start exercising some judgement, still stands, unchallenged.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13583792595392156452009-11-16T16:50:31.848-08:002009-11-16T16:50:31.848-08:00@ Anon
Once again, an anonymous is faced with the...@ Anon<br /><br />Once again, an anonymous is faced with the problem of claiming credit for a past statement that, well, is anonymous. No one will take you seriously on this blog unless you pick a pseudonym.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-23294099623494591942009-11-16T16:20:14.804-08:002009-11-16T16:20:14.804-08:00Allaboard - just goes to show how simpleminded and...Allaboard - just goes to show how simpleminded and out of touch you are - I'm a democrat, voted 100% dem, and donated to the DNC in the last election. And I'm watching our democratic political representatives go off the deep end fawning all over the pie in the sky concept of a high speed rail without a bit of sense to it, and I'm not going to sit idly by and lap it up like a moron. <br /><br />Now, because Im a democrat that thinks CHSRA are a bunch of underhanded snakes - how do you reconcile that in your little 'your so sad you lost' tirade? <br /><br />The point still stands that Obama has high expectations for the way this stimulus money will be spent, (shovel ready, US job creation, to name a couple) and transparency that will BE REQUIRED go with it - and his administration is not going to sit idly by and watch crooks and liars fake up their plans and results, trying to pull one off on the taxpayers. Its great to see, don't you agree? However, That's going to leave CHSRA with a little problem... forthrightness hasn't been their strong suit so far. But who knows, maybe their new PR company can pull one off on Lahood, cuz that's what we're paying them for afterall. We'll see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-61669586455063912742009-11-16T16:15:10.799-08:002009-11-16T16:15:10.799-08:00@Andre: you speak of ERTMS Level 3 (moving block) ...@Andre: you speak of ERTMS Level 3 (moving block) which is only a dream at this point. ERMTS Level 2 is conceptually similar to TVM. In general you must always assume the train in front of you is stopped, in the event that it suffers a derailment.<br /><br />@Rafael: many modern subway trains are permanently coupled "boa" trains with a continuous interior space. They're about as easy to uncouple as an articulated bus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66529686776539217212009-11-16T16:09:11.560-08:002009-11-16T16:09:11.560-08:00@ Andre Peretti -
thx for the clarification on th...@ Andre Peretti -<br /><br />thx for the clarification on the additional capacity that will be enabled by ERTMS over TVM-430.<br /><br />---<br /><br />"Independent wheels lack stability at high speed but are perfectly safe at commuter train speeds."<br /><br />That's too broad a statement. Talgo uses <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo" rel="nofollow">wheelsets</a> with independent wheels for the unpowered cars of all of its trains, including the 350, which as the name implies is certified for a top speed of 350km/h (204mph) in commercial service. Talgo wheelsets are stabilized via a passive steering mechanism that always keeps them perpendicular to the rails. For details, see the (terrible) <a href="http://www.talgo.es/eng.html" rel="nofollow">Talgo web site</a> » Menu » r&d » "Technological Principles" » "Axles Permanently Guided on Track At Zero Angle".<br /><br />Talgo relies on conventional locomotives/tractor cars with conventional powered bogies for traction. The new <a href="http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/avril-takes-on-the-airlines.html" rel="nofollow">AVRIL</a> will <a href="http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ferrocarriles/images/1/17/Talgo_avril.jpg" rel="nofollow">feature</a> two regular plus two Jacobs bogies (8 powered axles) in addition to 11 unpowered wheelsets. Thus, 8/19 = 42% of all axles will be powered, close to the 50% of distributed EMU HSR designs.<br /><br />Relative to the <a href="http://www.ecomodelismo.com/ECO_imgArt/ELEC/ELEC-3505.jpg" rel="nofollow">RENFE 102</a>, the (modest) innovation in the Avril is that thanks to the Jacobs bogies, the second and penultimate cars can house some of the transformer and battery gear while leaving just enough room for an aisle. This permits passenger seats in all cars.<br /><br />Talgo evidently decided against attaching any traction motors to the outside of the wheelsets or developing wheels with integrated motors. The former would probably not be feasible anyhow on account of available lateral clearance so close to the top of rail, the latter would preclude the variable gauge feature required to satisfy the company's primary customer, RENFE. Even in a fixed gauge variant, any motors would be constrained to an unusual and probably suboptimal disk form factor.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-31806170106761456732009-11-16T14:55:53.072-08:002009-11-16T14:55:53.072-08:00@ Richard Mlynarik -
unless I'm missing somet...@ Richard Mlynarik -<br /><br />unless I'm missing something, none of the rolling stock on the Madrid metro uses Jacobs bogies or Talgo-style wheelsets with steering mechanisms, both of which make it difficult to decouple cars from one another.<br /><br />The end cars of subway trains are always different from those in the middle, but that has no bearing on the issue of how easy it is to reconfigure a consist.<br /><br />Please elaborate, I don't understand the point you're trying to make.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-28006453120098510942009-11-16T14:48:44.133-08:002009-11-16T14:48:44.133-08:00@ Alon Levy -
"In other words, Amtrak is pla...@ Alon Levy -<br /><br />"In other words, Amtrak is planning to come up with its own specs, instead of buying off-the-shelf equipment."<br /><br />You're confusing specs (i.e. performance requirements) with implementations. The former are needed to identify a shortlist of candidate solutions, some or all of which may be off-the-shelf products.<br /><br />The biggest issue is if Amtrak can get a waiver from FRA to operate non-compliant gear on the NEC, which it owns. If not, then none of the off-the-shelf designs available on the international market will make that shortlist.<br /><br />In the context of the <a href="http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html" rel="nofollow">Acela Express</a>, FRA was crazy enough to actually <i>add</i> weight to an active tilt train for the sake of passive safety, which will never make train-on-train crashes at even moderately elevated speeds survivable (cp. Chatsworth crash). This drastically increased maintenance overheads, energy consumption and fares for Acela. The Obama administration's FRA may strike a more intelligent balance between the requirements of passenger and freight rail operators.<br /><br />The situation is somewhat analogous to but more complicated than Caltrain's in the SF peninsula, where a switch to non-compliant commuter rail rolling stock is supposed to happen in conjunction with signaling upgrades.<br /><br />Note that Caltrain has shown UIC-compliant rolling stock to perform as well or better than FRA-compliant equipment in grade crossing accidents. Thanks to the full grade separation that California HSR will bring, this will soon become a moot point in the SF peninsula. However, the results will remain relevant between San Jose and Gilroy as well as elsewhere in North America.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39471034076781809702009-11-16T14:45:41.564-08:002009-11-16T14:45:41.564-08:00@Rafael
An advantage of ERTMS over TVM430 is that ...@Rafael<br />An advantage of ERTMS over TVM430 is that it is dynamic (as opposed to static).<br />With TVM, train A's computer doesn't know the speed of Train B ahead of it and always assumes worst case: B has stopped. That obliges A to remain within stopping distance of B, that is 4 minutes+1 minute added by the SNCF for extra safety. Max: 12 tp/h.<br />With ERTMS, train A knows train B's current speed. This greatly reduces headway and can allow up to 20 tp/h.<br />The cost of installing ERTMS (in France) is €1 million/km. This is not cheap, and may be considered overkill in most cases.<br />Replacing the "E" (European) by a "U" (universal) might make it more politically acceptable in the US.<br /><br />@AndyDuncan<br />That's what I had in mind. Independant wheels lack stability at high speed but are perfectly safe at commuter train speeds.Andre Perettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57488252370112004432009-11-16T14:38:07.460-08:002009-11-16T14:38:07.460-08:00"Subway operators need the flexibility of cha..."<i>Subway operators need the flexibility of changing train length or swapping out a damaged/dirty/vandalized car at short notice. For that reason, designs with Jacobs bogies or Talgo-type wheelsets are rarely if ever used.</i>"<br /><br />Is there no limit to Rafael's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_Metro" rel="nofollow">expertise</a>?Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15590163679563110452009-11-16T14:26:02.172-08:002009-11-16T14:26:02.172-08:00@ Andy Duncan -
Subway operators need the flexibi...@ Andy Duncan -<br /><br />Subway operators need the flexibility of changing train length or swapping out a damaged/dirty/vandalized car at short notice. For that reason, designs with Jacobs bogies or Talgo-type wheelsets are rarely if ever used. The latter get their yaw stability from a passive steering mechanism featuring four rods that are attached to the bodies of the same and the next/previous car.<br /><br />A more promising approach for BART's squeal problem might be conventional bogies equipped with <a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&ved=0CBgQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gronataget.se%2Fupload%2FPublikaDokument%2Fdvd%2FSebastian%2520Stichel.pdf&rct=j&q=bogie+radial+steering&ei=3sEBS_f0CIbhsAbR1f2jDA&usg=AFQjCNH59ECg1zeESJExiK7LNGQnSuOVkQ&sig2=OJvgZ0bqXvrh_4Jqch-ayw" rel="nofollow">radial steering and yaw damping</a>. Radial steering is also sometimes used for heavy locomotive bogies that feature not the usual two but three or more axles.<br /><br />If the individual rail cars are short enough, two radially steered pivoting wheelsets will suffice and not exceed the axle load limit imposed by track design and/or maintenance overhead considerations. The bodies of short rail cars can be wider than usual, at the expense of usable platform length lost due to the sections in-between cars.<br /><br />If in addition to wheelset steering, a distributed EMU design also features independent axles to avoid wheel slip on the top of the rail, yaw behavior has to be stabilized with traction control. This was actually implemented in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Low_Floor" rel="nofollow">Siemens ULF</a> streetcar, but afaik not yet in any heavy rail system.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-30504653864080286862009-11-16T14:06:43.914-08:002009-11-16T14:06:43.914-08:00Adirondacker: Amtrak talks about lighter trains, b...Adirondacker: Amtrak talks about lighter trains, but also about new standards for them. The report's back on now - you should download it. It says,<br /><br /><i>Subsequent analysis by Amtrak suggests achieving 2 hour and 15 minute service between New York and Washington in the long-term by 2030 will require modifications to existing equipment, or deployment of next generation rolling stock, to allow required speeds through curves, as well as expansion of capacity into and through Manhattan, NY. Table 2 includes estimates of costs required to replace Amtrak’s existing NEC fleet with next generation equipment. As discussed above, this next generation of equipment has the potential to be lighter, and thus faster, than the current generation. However, performance specifications for such equipment will need to be developed and will depend in part on emerging standards for positive train control (PTC) and crash avoidance systems.</i><br /><br />In other words, Amtrak is planning to come up with its own specs, instead of buying off-the-shelf equipment.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-10214727010920120402009-11-16T13:26:25.626-08:002009-11-16T13:26:25.626-08:00you know anon, you people are so bitter that not...you know anon, you people are so bitter that not only did you lose, but that you lost big, all over the place, and not only did you lose big all over the place, but were your policies resulted in such grand failure, that you just can't stand to be in your owns skins. <br /><br />Yesterday I walked past one of thoe tea party gatherings, LOL there was like 50 people there in a city of 850,000Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com