tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post2336404305160661875..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Sustainable Menlo Park Speaker SeriesRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40240496250745324302009-11-22T15:10:53.544-08:002009-11-22T15:10:53.544-08:00Eric, All Abroad,
There seems to be no active fau...Eric, All Abroad,<br /><br />There seems to be no active faults crossing Caltrain Tracks between SF and SJ. <br /><br />http://quake.usgs.gov/info/faultmaps/122-38.html<br /><br />FYI, there are 12 tunnels crossing active faults in Shinkansen (it could be more if there are undiscovered faults). However, none of the active faults that Shinkansen tunnel is crossing have drift rates comparable to San Andreas (source-wikipedia).K.T.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-72132409494926967112009-11-22T13:39:58.931-08:002009-11-22T13:39:58.931-08:00oh i was referring to the grapevineoh i was referring to the grapevineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-61024917195004190052009-11-22T13:21:33.534-08:002009-11-22T13:21:33.534-08:00It's fair to say, though, that a tunnel will b...<i>It's fair to say, though, that a tunnel will be reasonably more expensive than most other options.</i><br /><br />I'd be very surprised if it wasn't. I'm not saying tunnel or nothing - I don't live on the Peninsula now but I grew up there so I'm quite familiar with it and I don't think that a well-designed elevated line is quite the visual disaster that it's opponents claim. However, I do think that a tunnel is the best solution if it's designed right and if a funding solution can be found that's workable for all parties, so I'm glad CHSRA is considering it and I'm curious to see what they come up with.<br /><br />What I find silly is the implication from some commenters that Palo Alto, et. al., are somehow acting in bad faith by proposing a tunnel and not volunteering to pay for it. It's not like Berkeley decided to pay for their BART tunnel because they felt it was the Right Thing to Do; they only raised taxes for it after cost estimates were in place and it became clear that there would be no other funding available. It's only rational to expect the Peninsula cities to do the same.<br /><br /><i>"Surveying shows a drift at the rate of as much as 2 inches per year."</i><br /><br />Which faultline crosses the Caltrain ROW and has that amount of movement? Not saying you're wrong, I'm curious though because I've never heard this. Not sure how you run a tunnel through a faultline - the Japanese seem to have it figured out though.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570027785365903956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-9131901240895903502009-11-22T11:59:26.012-08:002009-11-22T11:59:26.012-08:00ITs not a matter of the tunnel hold up to an earth...ITs not a matter of the tunnel hold up to an earthquake, tunnels usually do. it crossing a moving faultline. The ground is moving in opposite directions, continually moving the tunnel out of alignment. On the surface its easy to re align things, but as the tunnel cracks and the rail move, how do you fix that underground?<br />per usgs:<br /><br />"Surveying shows a drift at the rate of as much as 2 inches per year."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-50182291760905423252009-11-21T20:37:01.299-08:002009-11-21T20:37:01.299-08:00It's fair to say, though, that a tunnel will b...It's fair to say, though, that a tunnel will be reasonably more expensive than most other options (this has been true in the past too - just look at the Berkeley BART tunnel vs the original areal option).Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-82491454622036991332009-11-21T15:31:39.733-08:002009-11-21T15:31:39.733-08:00Earthquakes, fires, medical and sabotage/terrorist...<i>Earthquakes, fires, medical and sabotage/terrorist scenarios all have to be considered, even if they are very unlikely.</i><br /><br />Regarding earthquakes - we're talking tunnels here, not coal mines. A properly constructed tunnel can handle a huge earthquake - even one that would level many above-ground structures. Seismologists have said that the subway is pretty much the safest place to be in Los Angeles when the next Big One hits.<br /><br />As far as access for other types of emergencies, we're not talking about alpine base tunnels here, it's possible to provide numerous access points. <br /><br />It's true that some people just don't like going into tunnels - I know more than one Londoner who favors the bus instead of the tube for this reason - yet it can't be anywhere near the number of people who are terrified of flying, yet the airline industry has done ok over the years.<br /><br />I think the reason costs haven't been a big part of these meetings is nobody knows what those costs are yet, since these tunnels haven't been designed yet. And no, back-of-the-envelope educated guesses by bloggers don't count. And if you don't even know the costs, arguing about who is going to pay for things is fairly silly.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570027785365903956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-58633976671283085462009-11-20T15:29:13.380-08:002009-11-20T15:29:13.380-08:00In the Alps, the road alternatives have long tunne...In the Alps, the road alternatives have long tunnels, too. The alternatives there are taking a fast train through a long base tunnel, taking a slow train through a shorter tunnel, driving on a highway in a tunnel, and driving on winding two-lane roads above ground but with a top speed of about 40 km/h. The last option is nice if you want to see scenery, but not if you're trying to get from place to place.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-59503339512950781352009-11-20T15:25:14.993-08:002009-11-20T15:25:14.993-08:00@ Bianca -
thank you for clarifying who brought u...@ Bianca -<br /><br />thank you for clarifying who brought up the issue of the view. I couldn't recall when I was supposed to have made that comment.<br /><br />Your point about safety is well taken. By definition, tunnels are enclosed, confined spaces with a limited number of emergency exits. Earthquakes, fires, medical and sabotage/terrorist scenarios all have to be considered, even if they are very unlikely. For example, <a href="http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/images/wrecks/psefire.jpg" rel="nofollow">electrical fires</a> on trains are extremely rare, especially compared to to risks posed by flammable cargo on freight trains, accidents in road tunnels etc. But still, the risk is not zero, it has happened before.<br /><br />Another safety factor that is often overlooked is that of drivers suffering "tunnel vision", and I'm not being metaphorical here. Zooming through very long tunnels at high speed can temporarily impair peripheral vision and affect depth perception. The driver cabs windows on Eurostar trains are narrower than those on on other HSR trains to minimize the risk. Candidate drivers are also screened to weed out those who are more susceptible to the condition. Fortunately, shorter tunnels don't seem to cause as many problems.<br /><br />As for passenger enjoyment, spending some fraction of an HSR journey underground is par for the course. A number of rail lines in the Alps are almost entirely underground. The planned Chuo shinkansen line (maglev) will also run in tunnels for much of the route. Those suffering from cuniculuphobia - I think that's the word for "fear of tunnels" - may want to stick with driving and flying.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-61941299917521077272009-11-20T14:58:23.802-08:002009-11-20T14:58:23.802-08:00Sounds like you've only "heard" them...<i>Sounds like you've only "heard" them on youtube.</i><br /><br />"Sounds" wrong, in that case. I've ridden both the Eurostar and the Shinkansen. It's you who is relying on youtube and superstition. I'll admit, I riding the train itself doesn't give a perfect idea of what external noise levels are like (though on the Shinkansen they pass trains through stations all day at near full speeds, so I got a decent taste of it. And it's not that bad. Especially not at 125 mph.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21227015831635634942009-11-20T14:10:15.195-08:002009-11-20T14:10:15.195-08:00@ Morris Brown
As required by court order. I don&...@ Morris Brown<br /><br />As required by court order. I don't think they could have rescinded the EIR without doing it by public meeting, as per the Brown Act. (I could be wrong, I'm only vaguely acquainted with the Act)Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-87708183933184032482009-11-20T13:55:20.736-08:002009-11-20T13:55:20.736-08:00Perhaps of interest.
From the upcoming Authority ...Perhaps of interest.<br /><br />From the upcoming Authority board meeting of Dec 3rd., I note item 3.<br /><br />3. Rescission of Resolution Certifying Program EIR, Bay Area to Central Valley The board will discuss and take action on a resolution rescinding its approvals and certification of the Bay Area to Central Valley Environmental Impact Report. <br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/images/chsr/20091119113845_10309%20Board%20Meeting%20Agenda.pdf" rel="nofollow">Agenda</a>morris brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19779188371387068662009-11-20T13:51:29.271-08:002009-11-20T13:51:29.271-08:00God forbid Morris that people in Menlo Park might ...God forbid Morris that people in Menlo Park might be able to work in their own town, and not have to commute to silicon valley for work. Not everyone has the luxury of being a retired curmudgeon.<br /><br />Or do you want your kids working for Keplers at $6.99 an hour for the rest of their lives?Jack in MPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-58476465430818163912009-11-20T13:44:51.292-08:002009-11-20T13:44:51.292-08:00O/T - The Metro Rail in L.A just opened the Gold L...O/T - The Metro Rail in L.A just opened the Gold Line Extension on Nov, 15 2009. Hopefully we can see more of these projects started. Especially in cities with proposed HSR stations.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu_kLaNZvvQ" rel="nofollow">Metro Official Dedication Ceremony Video</a>davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40272591074666965912009-11-20T13:15:53.218-08:002009-11-20T13:15:53.218-08:00anon 12:07
Maybe you can help Caltrain pay for al...anon 12:07<br /><br />Maybe you can help Caltrain pay for all of its <b>Required</b> upgrades such as Grade Seperation, Electrification, PTC, New Rolling Stock. Go ahead, pull out your checkbook and write a check out to Caltrain so they won't need Federal and Prop bond money from HSR.davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-5915764974952705842009-11-20T12:51:26.999-08:002009-11-20T12:51:26.999-08:00Anon:
how would HSR bring menlo park more busines...Anon:<br /><br /><i>how would HSR bring menlo park more business, when all it will do is whiz by? (and ruin their 'views'. There's no station located in MP.</i><br /><br />HSR will bring more passengers to the Peninsula. If MP develops itself as an important destination, you'll start seeing people hop on HSR to SJ or RWC and then take Caltrain from there to MP. If CAHSR does the right thing and moves the Peninsula station to PA, then the distance from MP to the station will drop to about 2 km, less than the distance from just about any New York or Philadelphia landmark to the respective Amtrak stations.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-69138988052624599292009-11-20T12:46:36.782-08:002009-11-20T12:46:36.782-08:00so lets not duplicate the infrastructure and resou...<i>so lets not duplicate the infrastructure and resources required to double-train the Peninsula. </i><br /><br />interesting idea... we could simplify it a little further and only have one operator, CAHSR, on the peninsula. no need for quad-tracking and making allowances for caltrain equipment and platform variances. every other hsr train could stop at transbay, sfo, mountain view, san jose. former caltrain riders can take the bus (brimming with joy) to the nearest hsr station. <br /><br />the disused caltrain stations could become theme restaurants or railroad museums.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-22322089887511849112009-11-20T12:07:44.446-08:002009-11-20T12:07:44.446-08:00Andy - very clever idea, and since such connectivi...Andy - very clever idea, and since such connectivity is so useful, let say - its already there, so lets not duplicate the infrastructure and resources required to double-train the Peninsula. Terminate in SJ, and all the Peninsula riders can conveniently (and full of joy) hop on the Cal Train to catch HSR in San Jose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68545301744174852062009-11-20T11:59:29.370-08:002009-11-20T11:59:29.370-08:00@Morris
oops, looks like I misread your post, I t...@Morris<br /><br />oops, looks like I misread your post, I thought you were saying it would increase MP densities to those of SF, but you were just addressing those of us who live in densities like that. Disregard the second part of my comment above.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39418787254428952312009-11-20T11:53:50.360-08:002009-11-20T11:53:50.360-08:00There's no station located in MP.
If only the...<i>There's no station located in MP.</i><br /><br />If only there were another mode of transportation co-located with the HSR trains. They could have intermodal stations at certain points along the line. You could get on at your local station, and if you're going far, transfer to an express a few stops away. It could be a train. Run a bunch of them every hour, it could even double as a commuter line for people on the peninsula. The local would provide catchment area for the express, and the express would make the local stations more valuable to everyone near there.<br /><br />Since it's in California, I think they should call it "California Train", or maybe just "Cal Train"Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-30485559682464718812009-11-20T11:52:25.393-08:002009-11-20T11:52:25.393-08:00@Morris Brown
While we disagree on many things, I...@Morris Brown<br /><br />While we disagree on many things, I always feel bringing more information to the table is a beneficial action.<br /><br />Thank you for the post.<br /><br />Regarding a 10% increase in population, MP would have to increase it's population nearly 6 times to approach SF densities (and that's average density of the entire city, which is far lower than the densities in the core areas of SF). Perhaps you mean just a small area would see increased density?lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2312313626261132102009-11-20T11:49:20.438-08:002009-11-20T11:49:20.438-08:00how would HSR bring menlo park more business, when...how would HSR bring menlo park more business, when all it will do is whiz by? (and ruin their 'views'. There's no station located in MP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-49132546229012115042009-11-20T11:23:05.411-08:002009-11-20T11:23:05.411-08:00@ Morris Brown
I think it is interesting. It'...@ Morris Brown<br /><br />I think it is interesting. It's always important to know the history and financial backing of the group you're dealing with (i.e. Heritage Foundation, Howard Jarvis Taxpayer's Association, etc).<br /><br />It's interesting that their focus has changed now. Maybe HSR will bring them more business now?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15934712771193932262009-11-20T11:17:07.571-08:002009-11-20T11:17:07.571-08:00Since this is just a bit off track, I was not goin...Since this is just a bit off track, I was not going to bring it up, but the group that sponsored this "event" was Sustainable Menlo Park.<br /><br />That group was founded and funded by the Bohannon Development Co. It was founded as part of a PR effort to promote an office / hotel project in the Menlo Park M-2 light industrial area. They have hired and are paying a former Mayor of MP, Chuck Kinney and hold "events" every now and then to promote "goodwill" in the community.<br /><br />The Bohannon family is a very wealthy and powerful group on the Peninsula. The own the Hillsdale shopping center among their many assets. They own these 15 areas in MP where the current project is to build a hotel, sports club and 700,000 sq. ft. of office. ( a total of about 1.8 million sq. feet with the needed parking structures).<br /><br />In addition they own another 50 acres in this area and they are seeking to transform the nature of the whole M-2 area. (to those living in SF or higher density areas, this may not seem like a big deal -- but to Menlo Park your talking about almost a 10% increase in jobs and needed housing)<br /><br />I am not a welcome voice in the Bohannon led circles, because of my opposition to their project, which most likely will lead to a referendum, if and when it is approved.<br /><br />What is ironic, is that the Bohannon group was a major reason why BART never came down the peninsula as was the original plan in the 60's and 70's. The Bohannon group opposed BART because they feared loss of business at the Hillsdale shopping center.<br /><br /><br /><br />Robert if this history is not of interest, delete this.Morris Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-6327424591281494812009-11-20T10:58:02.788-08:002009-11-20T10:58:02.788-08:00@anon
that article only points out why we should ...@anon<br /><br />that article only points out why we should keep HSR on the Caltrain ROW.<br /><br />There are just as many NIMBY's in Livermore & Pleasanton as there are on the peninsula.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13461402903845319482009-11-20T10:39:37.298-08:002009-11-20T10:39:37.298-08:00Wow, Anonymous @9:57 am, you totally fail at readi...Wow, Anonymous @9:57 am, you totally fail at reading comprehension, and you take the cherry-picking prize. You quoted my words and attributed them to Rafael, and you omitted what I think is the most important concern about tunnels. My words, in their entirety, are copied below:<br /><br /><i>I'm not a huge advocate for tunnels; I think they are worrisome from a passenger safety aspect (think about evacuating a tunnel 100 feet underground) as well as a passenger enjoyment aspect (long tunnels are boring for the people inside the train) in addition to the question of cost.</i><br /><br />It might be convenient for your argument to eliminate the stated concern for human life, but it's not accurate, or honest.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.com