tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post2450611114387063210..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Speeding Up Amtrak's Pacific SurflinerRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77513649121173106782009-04-10T12:53:00.000-07:002009-04-10T12:53:00.000-07:00"so you think the Japanese use the same equipment ..."so you think the Japanese use the same equipment and the same train lengths all the time?"<BR/><BR/>No, and this response is why I hesitated to post what I did. I was just adding more detail to the discussion of how passengers board trains.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-54584429992250852502009-04-10T05:25:00.000-07:002009-04-10T05:25:00.000-07:00@ spokker, Brandon -so you think the Japanese use ...@ spokker, Brandon -<BR/><BR/>so you think the Japanese use the same equipment and the same train lengths all the time?<BR/><BR/>It's not essential that people queue up in absolutely the right place. It's important that they queue up at all and let passengers alight before they themselves board.<BR/><BR/>But I agree, having multiple transit agencies all do their thing without sufficient co-ordination of timetables, platform utilization etc. leads to greater delays than necessary.<BR/><BR/>That's where having a single, statewide passenger rail operator would come in handy but that's not going to happen as long as Joe Average perceives the state legislature in Sacramento as a black hole for his tax dollars. The 2/3 rule on the budget needs to go so there's some clear accountability.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52979918410401661452009-04-09T23:40:00.000-07:002009-04-09T23:40:00.000-07:00No, I'm pretty sure we're doomed.No, I'm pretty sure we're doomed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-60117663588085629672009-04-09T22:42:00.000-07:002009-04-09T22:42:00.000-07:00@ Rafela: "the JR Hokkaido 281 (scroll down) is a ...@ Rafela: "<I>the JR Hokkaido 281 (scroll down) is a state-of-the-art active tilt DMU running on legacy narrow gauge tracks between Sapporo and Hakodate. It is very lightweight ...</I>"<BR/><BR/>And we have Talgos with concrete blocks in the trailer-driver because it "needs to be heavy".<BR/><BR/>Existing freight rail interests will use the bludgeon of FRA "safety" regulations to avoid "excessive interference" from passenger rail traffic until an accommodation is reached. When blocked by a regulatory body captured by the industry it is regulating, you have to go to the real source of the regulations to get things fixed.<BR/><BR/>The <A HREF="http://zierke.com/shasta_route/pages/04example.html" REL="nofollow">balanced versus unbalanced</A> link is significant of what, exactly, in the Surfliner context? Precisely how many miles of the path that you are talking being balanced for 60mph minimum speeds, let alone higher?BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-86301627645251667722009-04-09T21:19:00.000-07:002009-04-09T21:19:00.000-07:00Spokker is absolutely correct.... it's obviosu the...Spokker is absolutely correct.... it's obviosu then that a key characteristic is that the same equipment, or havingthe same standards.... are used on the line. Different equipment ='s different door opening locationsBrandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68562281440068181572009-04-09T21:02:00.000-07:002009-04-09T21:02:00.000-07:00"The key is making it obvious that queuing is what..."The key is making it obvious that queuing is what they're supposed to do, while explaining that the purpose is to help improve on-time performance."<BR/><BR/>They would also have to inform passengers waiting on the platform how many cars the next train has since it could be different from time to time, especially on Metrolink.<BR/><BR/>Also, Metrolink and the Surfliner stop at different ends of the platform with some overlap at some stations. You would have to specify which queue is which, not just slap some lines on the ground.<BR/><BR/>This is all doable, of course. Just thought I would add more detail.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-49077337175199850632009-04-09T14:16:00.000-07:002009-04-09T14:16:00.000-07:00And on the train, it's really up to the train crew...And on the train, it's really up to the train crew to keep passengers informed when their stop is coming up, and herd them toward the exits when it's time. On the northern NEC, there are some stations with short and low-level platforms, so they only open a few doors on the train. The competent conductors will walk through the train, figure out who needs to get off, and tell them exactly where to go when the train is coming up to the stop. I've see dwell times as short as 10 seconds (one person got off).crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-75379244747758014512009-04-09T14:02:00.000-07:002009-04-09T14:02:00.000-07:00@ Jim -in Japan, they paint lines on the platforms...@ Jim -<BR/><BR/>in Japan, they paint lines on the platforms instructing passengers waiting to board where to queue up. Contrary to what you may think, Americans are willing to do just that, just look at any airport check-in or security scan location.<BR/><BR/>The key is making it obvious that queuing is what they're supposed to do, while explaining that the purpose is to help improve on-time performance.<BR/><BR/>http://www.phoenixanime.com/japan02/dscn1823.jpgRafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19156702020641063852009-04-09T11:11:00.000-07:002009-04-09T11:11:00.000-07:00It only takes one or two people to hold up the sh...It only takes one or two people to hold up the show. My pet peeve is always the one guy who doesn't know the unwritten "stand to the right , walk to the left" rule on the escalator. And many people, don't under stand the " you have to let people off, before you can get on" rule of both etiquette and physics. This is beyond the grasp the general public. i have to tell that from what I see from a transit worker/daily subway rider's point of view... make no mistake, society is doomed. It just a matter of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2837321642393441832009-04-09T06:49:00.000-07:002009-04-09T06:49:00.000-07:00Rafael-"Interpolating linearly" seems very much l...Rafael-<BR/><BR/>"Interpolating linearly" seems very much like a technical term for something very simple.Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-54471237221653347202009-04-09T06:35:00.000-07:002009-04-09T06:35:00.000-07:00@ BruceMcF -the JR Hokkaido 281 (scroll down) is a...@ BruceMcF -<BR/><BR/>the <A HREF="http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html" REL="nofollow">JR Hokkaido 281</A> (scroll down) is a state-of-the-art active tilt DMU running on legacy narrow gauge tracks between Sapporo and Hakodate. It is very lightweight and uses a computer with a track geometry database to <I>anticipate</I> curves and their superelevation. Its top speed is only 90mph or so, constrained by an old JR rule that requires an emergency braking distance of just 600m on the legacy network.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless it manages very respectable line haul times - 3 hours for 200 miles - by keeping average speed as high as possible, even in winter conditions. Relative to the previous service, it reduced line haul time by 47 minutes and virtually killed off the short-hop air route.<BR/><BR/>For an explanation of balanced vs. unbalanced superelevation, see <A HREF="http://zierke.com/shasta_route/pages/04example.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. Enabling mixed traffic through appropriate signaling and other measures would be extremely helpful in increasing getting passenger rail speeds even without major track work.<BR/><BR/>@ Brandon -<BR/><BR/>anything wrong with linear as opposed to other types of interpolation as an educated guess? Amtrak just provides two data points.<BR/><BR/>@ jim, adirondacker -<BR/><BR/><I>close the doors on them?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes. On-time performance means passengers need to be at the platform on time. Admittedly, that is easier to enforce once trains run more often.<BR/><BR/><I>Push them?</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgHs_Z9BY_E" REL="nofollow">No</A>.<BR/><BR/><I>leave them behind?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes. <I>Ora inglese</I> (~punctuality) is key. The reason people arrive late at the platform isn't a relaxed lifestyle, on the contrary: it's that they expect trains to be late and prefer not to get hot and sweaty standing around on an uncovered platform. If the trains run on time, passengers will arrive on time and accept that they may miss theirs if they're late.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66803398500987100212009-04-09T04:48:00.000-07:002009-04-09T04:48:00.000-07:00mostly they take their time about getting on and o...<EM>mostly they take their time about getting on and off the trains..... pleasant casual lifestyle....</EM><BR/><BR/>There's a difference between pleasant and casual and taking up other people's time. It's rude to take more time than needed when you are getting on or off mass transit.Adirondackernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-49321167120306183352009-04-09T00:14:00.000-07:002009-04-09T00:14:00.000-07:00@ ragael- I think it was the san clemente area - ...@ ragael- I think it was the san clemente area - and any of the areas where the train runs along the beach next to beach front property... those folks have put up a fuss before and generally don't like, want, need, or want to pay for, any public transportation... But since the trains are there, we could increase them little by little so they wouldn't notice. You'd think people who have so much would be too busy having fun to worry about the train going by huh.<BR/><BR/>- as for positive train control and everything else. the answer to all of it is, the railroad will eventually do everything but nothing will happen quickly or without additional money. <BR/><BR/>- as for boarding, i have seen that californians are most lackadaisical when it comes to such things. ( to some extent that is what is good about california - we are laid back at least we used ti be before all the east coast people tried to take over and ruin it) But yes , mostly they take their time about getting on and off the trains. There is a lot of pressure on the conductors to keep the trains on time to the minute. But again, one of the drawbacks in general with all of this growth and such, is that our pleasant casual lifestyle is being replaced by a more frantic one. Not really a plus. And what can you do with them anyway? close the doors on them? Push them? leave them behind?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-69917725363207978652009-04-08T23:44:00.000-07:002009-04-08T23:44:00.000-07:00Bruce - There is nothing that prevents a diesel fr...Bruce - There is nothing that prevents a diesel from having active tilt. See for example, the LRC, the ICE TD, or the Class 221 Super Voyagers.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41393271430577469112009-04-08T22:20:00.000-07:002009-04-08T22:20:00.000-07:00"Interpolating linearly"oh my goodness!"Interpolating linearly"<BR/><BR/>oh my goodness!Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38455453286087085502009-04-08T19:11:00.000-07:002009-04-08T19:11:00.000-07:00Alon Levy said... "between LA and San Diego, the o...Alon Levy said... "<I>between LA and San Diego, the only major curves that something can be done about are the one at Dana Point, which can be eased, and the one right north of University City, which should be bypassed.</I>"<BR/><BR/>If curves can be eased or bypassed, that is fine ... all rail services benefit from that, not just the Rapid Rail service. Otherwise, an ability to go through the curve at a higher rate of speed raises the average trip speed as much by accelerating the slow sections as by allowing full speed to be maintained in the fast sections.<BR/><BR/>"<I>The other curves pass through dense urban areas, so that reducing noise becomes more important than making it possible in theory to maintain 90 mph.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Being able to go through a curve that is a 20mph curve for passenger comfort on a regular train, at 25mph or 30mph instead, gets the train through the slow section that much more quickly. And the more quickly the train gets out of the speed bottleneck sections, the better the return on the investment in the higher speed sections.<BR/><BR/>In some cases, the deceleration and acceleration itself is a source of noise, and being able to maintain a steadier rate of speed is a noise benefit. But, definitely, if noise walls allow faster passage through an urban area, that is another priority area for early investment.<BR/><BR/>Invest in raising the speed on low speed bottlenecks as early as practical, it increases the payoff on raising the speed on the high speed sections.<BR/><BR/>Now, just as in ongoing work on the Chicago / St. Louis line, if the speed limit is for <I>track</I> conditions, or if freight and passenger operations are getting tangled up, those need to be seen to first.<BR/><BR/>But tilt trains can help with the average speed even without raising the top speed. After all, that is the point of the Talgo's in the Pacific Northwest ... they have been the standard 79mph limit to this point, and are just now looking to apply to raise some sections to 110mph ... however, with some switchbacking in their alignments, they still benefit from the tilt-trains allowing them to go through turns at a higher rate of speed.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-87006914776093732372009-04-08T18:45:00.000-07:002009-04-08T18:45:00.000-07:00Bruce: between LA and San Diego, the only major cu...Bruce: between LA and San Diego, the only major curves that something can be done about are the one at Dana Point, which can be eased, and the one right north of University City, which should be bypassed. The other curves pass through dense urban areas, so that reducing noise becomes more important than making it possible in theory to maintain 90 mph.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-78091645429740523072009-04-08T18:31:00.000-07:002009-04-08T18:31:00.000-07:00Hometown Santa Barbara to LA in 90 minutes? BRING ...Hometown Santa Barbara to LA in 90 minutes? BRING IT!!Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17237464626091579237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80248201919855857282009-04-08T18:11:00.000-07:002009-04-08T18:11:00.000-07:00This discussion is all well and good, but let's cu...This discussion is all well and good, but let's cut to the chase: how does this affect the peninsula? :-psportbikernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-6759918322524903722009-04-08T17:48:00.000-07:002009-04-08T17:48:00.000-07:00"2. Acceleration: diesel engines and FRA compatibi..."<I>2. Acceleration: diesel engines and FRA compatibility reduce acceleration, reducing average speed. Even so, given straight track some lines, like the Water Level Route, achieve 60 mph on some sections. ...<BR/><BR/>4. Track conditions: slow zones kill average speed, no matter what the top speed is. So do tight curves.</I>"<BR/><BR/>The investment for track conditions is improved track ... the investment for tight curves is super-elevation to what the general traffic can allow, then additional elevation with a tilt-train.<BR/><BR/>With luck, the Federal government will get toward an 80:20 match for these kinds of investments, which will leverage state funding allotments by a substantial amount.<BR/><BR/>Even though diesels can only use passive tilt, its still well worthwhile <I>because</I> of the slower acceleration ... a higher speed limit through the curve has a bigger payoff for a diesel because of the longer time it takes to accelerate toward its top speed.<BR/><BR/>Rob Dawg said... "<I>Let me guess. You've never been to either the Ventura or Oxnard or Camarillo or Moorpark Segments. Between Camarillo and Moorpark there have to be a half dozen uncontrolled at grade crossings.</I>"<BR/><BR/>This post is about edging the Superliner toward being a Rapid Rail line, and the standard answer for a Rapid Rail line is "upgrade the crossing". Save the 125mph gates for a stretch that combines lots of grade seperation and very few crossings, and nice straight runs ... quad gates otherwise, and speed sensitive so they do not close in time to give a 110mph train a through signal, when its a 30mph train trundling along the line.<BR/><BR/>People rarely object to upgraded gates, since it cuts down the number of Darwin's Volunteers, which widely considered to be a good thing.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51425898347645763412009-04-08T17:47:00.000-07:002009-04-08T17:47:00.000-07:00OC has plenty of NIMBYs. However, I believe the ro...OC has plenty of NIMBYs. However, I believe the route is now double-tracked through the trickiest part - along Lincoln Ave in Santa Ana, between 17th Street and Santiago Creek. Next time I'm down there (I usually take Metrolink or the Surfliner from LA Union Station to Santa Ana) I'll try and take a closer look.<BR/><BR/>Most of the existing buildings alongside the tracks in the Orange/Santa Ana region are either warehouses, light industrial, or in a few cases, just north of the 22, apartment buildings.<BR/><BR/>South of Santa Ana there is ROW to add a third track siding in places, and in Irvine almost all crossings are now grade separated, save for Sand Canyon Ave. I'm less familiar with the track south of that point.<BR/><BR/>Rafael also mentioned "passenger-induced delays". This is indeed a problem on the Surfliners. Southern Californians generally don't know how to ride trains. This was an especially troublesome problem during the gas price spike of 2008, where lots of new riders were using the trains. Folks often didn't get ready for their stop in time, and the lack of at-level boarding platforms along the entire station length meant that trains had to line up perfectly for those who needed assisted boarding from the few existing platforms.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-18428699475346514362009-04-08T17:23:00.000-07:002009-04-08T17:23:00.000-07:00As arcady notes, the Surfliner already runs 90 mph...As arcady notes, the Surfliner <B>already</B> runs 90 mph in ATS (automatic train stop) territory. It's an old mechanical system installed by ATSF decades ago.<BR/><BR/>This is pretty common knowledge among anyone that is reasonably familiar with the Surfliners. It might help to enlist a couple of the more experienced posters on this board to review some of the posts before "going live" with them.<BR/><BR/>There's a total of 59 miles @ 90 mph. You can see a list of the exact sections of 90 mph track speed here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,548651mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-84343795344282366832009-04-08T16:51:00.000-07:002009-04-08T16:51:00.000-07:00A couple questions regarding the LA-SD section for...A couple questions regarding the LA-SD section for anyone who can answer them:<BR/><BR/>1) In the near-ish future (within the next 6 years), do you think Caltrans will be done upgrading the entire line to double tracks? Is the plan to double track this ENTIRE part of this route at all?<BR/><BR/>2) If the entire LA-SD line is double tracked w/ sidings and more trainsets are purchased, will Amtrak run express trains with at the most one stop between LA and SD?<BR/><BR/>3) The locomotives that Amtrak uses for the Pacific Surfliner route are supposed to have a top speed of 110mph. Will it ever be possible that PS trains will be able to hit that speed anywhere on the LA-SD line? With the number of coaches that they use, is this speed not possible?<BR/><BR/>4) Will Caltrans/Amtrak be implementing PTC on the LA-SD route? If so, how much time will that shave off the line haul time?<BR/><BR/>5) Besides double-tracking w/sidings, new track capable of faster speeds, elimination of worst curves, through tracks at LAUS, and PTC, is there anything else that will be done on this route to get the line haul time down to 2 hours for an express train?Alex M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04082494097195214427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35829903903895534332009-04-08T15:51:00.000-07:002009-04-08T15:51:00.000-07:00@ rob dawg -(a) I'm the one who wrote the post and...@ rob dawg -<BR/><BR/>(a) I'm the one who wrote the post and,<BR/><BR/>(b) the FRA permits grade crossings up to 110 mph if there are four-quadrant gates, even up to 125mph if the crossing is hardened. That appears to be code for installing something sturdy enough to stop a car or truck approaching the closed crossing at significant speed. One hardening technology - sorry, can't find the link right now - is called a vehicle arresting barrier.<BR/><BR/>Some implementations look like a super-sturdy tennis net that is either rotated or elevated out of the road when it is instructed to do so by the railroad signaling system. I'm not sure if or how these systems would detect the presence of a vehicle already above them as they deploy.<BR/><BR/>Inside the poles on either side of the road are coils of steel bands that must pass through a slalom of roller guides as a vehicle impacting the net pulls on them. Each section of the bands is bent severely and multiple times in alternating directions as it traverses the roller guides, dissipating the vehicle's kinetic energy. The systems were originally designed for protecting military bases, embassies etc.<BR/><BR/>To be effective, such devices must be installed at some distance from the rail tracks. That means moving the traffic lights back, for both cross and frontage roads. The other limitation is width, the videos I've seen all show either one or two lanes. One the up side, I've read they only cost half as much (~$500,000) as a set of four-quadrant gates.<BR/><BR/>Note that while FRA permits such barriers for speeds up to 125mph, the applications of the technology to railroad crossings is still new. That is why FRA hasn't spelled out <I>exactly</I> what "hardened" means yet.<BR/><BR/>Whether the CPUC would permit grade crossings to be retained at those speeds for cross roads with agricultural cross traffic is unclear. Full grade separation is probably not economical in these cases. During harvest season, train and barrier operations might need to be modified.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14597981985853847782009-04-08T15:29:00.000-07:002009-04-08T15:29:00.000-07:00I wonder if farm crossings can be handled the way ...I wonder if farm crossings can be handled the way they are in the UK: there's a gate, normally closed, and a phone to contact the dispatcher. If you want to cross, you call the dispatcher, he sets the signals to red and unlocks the gate. It could work nicely for very lightly used crossings. Otherwise, automatic barricade crossings should in theory be acceptable for speeds of up to 125 mph, and that's the highest that's really worthwhile on that corridor anyway. Oh and by the way, on the Surfliner South portion, the line speed is 90 mph for large parts of the stretch between Sorrento Valley and Santa Ana. It's one of the few places outside the Northeast Corridor where trains can go faster than 79, as it still has the ATS installation left over from the Santa Fe days.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.com