tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post2490989357408368866..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Palo Alto Planning Commissioners Debate HSR OptionsRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-43881906786953051322009-03-21T16:39:00.000-07:002009-03-21T16:39:00.000-07:00Does anybody have a graphic of CHSRA's concept of ...Does anybody have a graphic of CHSRA's concept of an embankment and cut/fill through residential areas? I can't find anything on the siteBay Area Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807091317788242756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26151126469084063392009-03-21T11:46:00.000-07:002009-03-21T11:46:00.000-07:00Eric said..."Cute. There is a proposed design. Rea...Eric said..."<I>Cute. There is a proposed design. Read the EIR.</I>"<BR/><BR/>There has to be a preliminary design to do an overall EIR. There's no point in doing the final design for each leg of the corridor until the project gets the go ahead.<BR/><BR/>And the "its not a final design" is not a dodge. If the communities along the corridor engage in the design process, they have a substantial opportunity to affect the final design.<BR/><BR/>Of course, obstructionists will want to polarize the situation, and will want to cut down the range of options considered, to avoid workable compromises emerging.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, if it comes down to the CAHSRA pushing for the most convenient option from its perspective and obstructionists pushing for the option that makes it least likely that the project will proceed, that increases the likelihood that the preliminary design will be the final design.<BR/><BR/>However, the position of the PA planning commissioners to push for development of a full range of options is the responsible way to proceed.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-6009170942809283652009-03-21T09:34:00.000-07:002009-03-21T09:34:00.000-07:00I say give them what they want and fun it up 101 n...I say give them what they want and fun it up 101 nonstop. buil the y shaped arial support structures, use third rail power and run it non stop at 125 from diridon to tbt and you'll shave off even more time. construction could be done by closing only one lane a section at a time of the 101. and precast sections could be assembled quickly. When Im going to a show I don't want to stop in PA on my way to hollywood anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79898829655626667352009-03-21T09:31:00.000-07:002009-03-21T09:31:00.000-07:00Redwood city is more blue collar and I'd prefer th...Redwood city is more blue collar and I'd prefer the station be there.<BR/>@eric I'm very fond of socal, but it doesn't change the fact that wihout san francisco, the bay area would just be another san deigo. pleasant but dull.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-81054027914885119082009-03-20T23:46:00.000-07:002009-03-20T23:46:00.000-07:00I live in San Francisco, you know, the only real c...<I>I live in San Francisco, you know, the only real city in the bay area, and believe me, no one around here even mentions palo alto.</I><BR/><BR/>I recognized your fine San Francisco whine. Try moving to Southern California from SF; I did and it's fantastic to be around people who don't spend their whole time alternately complaining about everything, and arguing that their provincial little city is the center of the universe.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570027785365903956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-54028993597578250322009-03-20T23:41:00.000-07:002009-03-20T23:41:00.000-07:00Not really too clued into the process, are we Eric...<I>Not really too clued into the process, are we Eric?</I><BR/><BR/>Cute. There is a proposed design. Read the EIR. Of course CAHSR is going to hide behind the classic "Well this isn't a <I>final</I> design" dodge. Look at their statements. You think because it's a project we support state bureaucrats are suddenly going to stop acting like state bureaucrats?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570027785365903956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-5511164422762267062009-03-20T23:40:00.000-07:002009-03-20T23:40:00.000-07:00BAR, a lot of cities in Silicon Valley have more j...BAR, a lot of cities in Silicon Valley have more jobs than employed residents: Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Redwood City (<A HREF="http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/daytime/daytimepop.html" REL="nofollow">link</A>). San Jose actually has fewer jobs than residents, while Santa Clara has far more.<BR/><BR/>I suspect PA is a better station location than RC, mostly because of Stanford. Students are often early adopters of mass transit; universities also generate a lot of travel, with conferences and with students going back to their parents' homes. But it's not precise, and if it turns out RC offers a better station, or PA does not support a station in its city, then I won't shed too many tears.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14334579776551104022009-03-20T22:26:00.000-07:002009-03-20T22:26:00.000-07:00Jim is the best poster in the world.Jim is the best poster in the world.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90016060460306109842009-03-20T22:23:00.000-07:002009-03-20T22:23:00.000-07:00@Bay rea resident. CAHSR does not need a stop in ...@Bay rea resident. CAHSR does not need a stop in PA. PA thinks WAY to highly of itself. I live in San Francisco, you know, the only real city in the bay area, and believe me, no one around here even mentions palo alto. HSR just has to find a way to get through there with the least amount of BS from the folks who live there thats all. need PA? thats laughable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40328322307050472802009-03-20T22:11:00.000-07:002009-03-20T22:11:00.000-07:00@spokker I love the french as well. They know h...@spokker I love the french as well. They know how to get things done. They have great style and design and use better technology. America is so over. Its embarrassing. The baby boom generation is the worst ever. They will be gone soon though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39780980249726030362009-03-20T21:27:00.000-07:002009-03-20T21:27:00.000-07:00From the post: "An aerial structure nicely designe...From the post: "<I>An aerial structure nicely designed with several arches like a Roman acqueduct would provide a seamless flow between the two sides of the track and could even be pretty to look at.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Eric said...<BR/>"<I>This keeps coming up. Can someone please point to where CAHSR has proposed such a thing? Ever? They are proposing a retained embankment, which is a completely different, and considerably less expensive, animal.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Not really too clued into the process, are we Eric? There is no final design proposal on the table. Its at the stage before that, where the communities have an opportunity to provide their input and try to hammer out the design that in their view represents the best result in terms of positive amenity and incremental cost.<BR/><BR/>The reason this kind of design keeps getting raised is that other communities in other countries with similar concerns were able, at a similar point in the design process, to gain that type of structure.<BR/><BR/>And definitely, for town centers in towns that do not want the multi-year disruption of the town center from tunneling, the likely need for a substantial local contribution for those communities that choose tunneling, and yet want to reduce the <I>existing</I> pedestrian barrier effects of the Caltrain right of way, its a design option that merits consideration.<BR/><BR/>As is in suburban areas where there may be a desire to <I>retain</I> existing cul-de-sacs split grade embanked or where the ROW is more narrow a walled fill (preferably with a <A HREF="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p278/BruceMcF/rail/STOCKHOLMINTERNATIONALFAIRS.jpg" REL="nofollow">green wall (image)</A>).<BR/><BR/>Stepping back, by and large the Planning Commissioners request for all options to be considered is a quite sensible one at this stage in the design process.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-43412317726863349522009-03-20T20:13:00.000-07:002009-03-20T20:13:00.000-07:00"Well maybe thats because you don't live here, whi..."Well maybe thats because you don't live here, which explains your offbase evaluations of the case for HSR on the peninsula.<BR/>http://www.sanjoseca.gov/clerk/CommitteeAgenda/BBT/100206/BBT100206_02.pdf"<BR/><BR/>Yes, that document indeed talks about Quiet Zones, but that refers to horn blasts.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21500150568664898702009-03-20T20:00:00.000-07:002009-03-20T20:00:00.000-07:00jim, you don't understand. Palo Alto has more JOB...jim, you don't understand. Palo Alto has more JOBS than residents, and then theres that little school there. CHSRA only hurts themselves by not stopping in Palo Alto, the residents there don't care. CHSRA needs Palo Alto as a destination not as a starting point.Bay Area Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807091317788242756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-36067569839649834982009-03-20T19:42:00.000-07:002009-03-20T19:42:00.000-07:00Spokker, I could not find anything that supports t...Spokker, <BR/><I>I could not find anything that supports this statement. </I><BR/><BR/>Well maybe thats because you don't live here, which explains your offbase evaluations of the case for HSR on the peninsula.<BR/>http://www.sanjoseca.gov/clerk/CommitteeAgenda/BBT/100206/BBT100206_02.pdfBay Area Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807091317788242756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-32385670775633556722009-03-20T19:39:00.000-07:002009-03-20T19:39:00.000-07:00Resident, the real environmental justice issues ar...Resident, the real environmental justice issues are in San Jose- but I am not sure the impact on the Peninsula route, since the San Jose issues are below Diridon, this is where the train goes through some predominantly spanish speaking emerging neighborhoods around Diridon station and elsewhere, and (drum roll) the CSHRA had exactly ZERO outreach meetings in SPANISH for these impoverished communities! Caltrain does not go through the higher end areas of Almaden Valley or the better parts of Willow Glen.Bay Area Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807091317788242756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-8290417188275268382009-03-20T19:35:00.000-07:002009-03-20T19:35:00.000-07:00"Caltrain has "rail quiet zones" through these res..."Caltrain has "rail quiet zones" through these residential towns where speeds are maintained at 35mph."<BR/><BR/>I could not find anything that supports this statement. All I found were proposals to cease some or all train horn blasts in what the FRA calls Quiet Zones. It says nothing about reduced speed.<BR/><BR/>I did find <A HREF="http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/12/news/coastal/23_32_008_11_07.txt" REL="nofollow">this interesting article</A> about the demand for FRA Quiet Zones in Oceanside, CA in 2007.<BR/><BR/>This really illustrates how common this, "Move next to the noisy train tracks, then complain" movement is. Some comments are really informative as well and I'm glad to see all the hate toward the NIMBYs in Oceanside.<BR/><BR/>"First, the railroad was built in 1880 when there was no town named Oceanside; just a place called San Luis Rey (about 4-5 miles from the ocean). The populace started their migration to the west and developers came because of the railroad. The name "Ocean Side" came along about 1882. The town grew and became incorporated in 1888 due in large part because of the railroad. Second, horns are used to warn people of the danger of a train coming into their area. You may be safely tucked into your bed at night but there are others going to work, enjoying nightlife, etc. These people deserve to be warned of an oncoming train. Third, if you think an engineer from Los Angeles, Barstow, or other parts unknown have the time or inclination to blow their horns just to bother you in your townhouse when they are directly below said horn, you are one self-centered ignoramus. Any engineer with any time in the cab has had his or her share of death and near misses. Quiet Zones will end up quieting many human beings."<BR/><BR/>Whoever said this said it well.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-55650844654611819642009-03-20T18:45:00.000-07:002009-03-20T18:45:00.000-07:00An aerial structure nicely designed with several a...<I>An aerial structure nicely designed with several arches like a Roman acqueduct would provide a seamless flow between the two sides of the track and could even be pretty to look at.</I><BR/><BR/>This keeps coming up. Can someone please point to where CAHSR has proposed such a thing? Ever? They are proposing a retained embankment, which is a completely different, and considerably less expensive, animal. <BR/><BR/>What you're proposing is quite expensive to build, and might compare in cost to a trench. Not to mention no matter how much it's prettied up, it's still gonna loom over these relatively low-rise peninsula neighborhoods.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570027785365903956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-67867399791499058982009-03-20T16:53:00.000-07:002009-03-20T16:53:00.000-07:00These arguments are only valid if you believe that...<I>These arguments are only valid if you believe that HSR will be significantly more disruptive than Caltrain already is, and I don't think it will be.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Spokker you are the most incredible BSer, you deserve a prize! As we have stated repeatedly and the thousands of residents on the peninsula are well aware, HSR is going to have one train every 8 minutes (every 3 minutes if you include the Caltrains also), where today caltrain runs once every half hour through the day. Caltrain has "rail quiet zones" through these residential towns where speeds are maintained at 35mph. The current Caltrain is non invasive and residents know it, meanwhile you bloviating train wonks are claiming stuff that aint so, which is why nobody agrees with you.<BR/><BR/>The Environmental Justice issues are about to raise their ugly heads on the downtown San Jose portion of the train, where CHSRA conveniently dropped all the noise impacts from high/med to LOW based on the fact that HSRs have no horns (where today Caltrains have horns- in the non quiet zones that is)- that particular designation is floating like a lead balloon. the program level EIR basically states that all environmental impacts are "low" on residential areas where the Caltrain ROW currently exists and there are no emminent domain plans. HAHAHA!Bay Area Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807091317788242756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73240622523426920452009-03-20T15:12:00.000-07:002009-03-20T15:12:00.000-07:00Clem said..."Ever heard of San Francisco's 1999 Pr...Clem said...<BR/>"<I>Ever heard of San Francisco's 1999 Proposition H?</I>"<BR/><BR/>No, but if its the one that includes: "<I>A world-class regional transit station, connecting Caltrain, MUNI, AC Transit, Golden Gate Transit, and other intercity bus lines with high-speed rail should be located within easy walking distance of downtown and should have a direct connection to BART and MUNI Metro;</I>"<BR/><BR/>... it seems that it requires a design for the TBT train box which is capable of serving as the main northern terminus of both Caltrain and HSR. Since there's no clear indication this describes the design that SF is trying to organize applying for federal funds to build ... let alone, as Jarrett Mullin suggests in the "LAO and Sen Lowenthal" comment thread, "<I>For instance, Amtrak wishes to provide additional SF-LA service via the coast. It would be excellent to have this service terminate at Transbay. In addition, Monterrey will likely get regional rail service in the future, and Transbay would be the ideal terminus.</I>" If 12 trains per hour maxes out the 2003 design, additional services would seem to be untenable.<BR/><BR/>"<I>It's dismaying to see how the CHSRA's "requirements" were plucked out of thin air.</I>"<BR/><BR/>While they say they have engineers saying its unworkable, there's the question of what operational assumptions the engineers are making, which is to say whether the question posed involved 12 trains per hour and 1 hour platform dwell times.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, even on more modest assumptions, there's the problem of making two platforms in a terminal platform serve as the main northern Caltrain terminus.<BR/><BR/>And the decision to design the TBT train box without taking seriously the full scope of the 1999 Proposition H language was not CAHSRA's decision.<BR/><BR/>"<I>It's equally dismaying to see Caltrain (for which the DTX was conceived) shoved aside in favor of HSR.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Yes, that is the problem in a nutshell. The 1999 Prop H language was more ambitious than that, but the train box seems like it was basically designed for Caltrain alone, and despite some criticism at the time, its with the passage of Prop 1A converting a hypothetical HSR line to a likely HSR line that the underdesign comes to a head.<BR/><BR/>"<I>Was the point of Prop H to spend $4 billion in order to have Caltrain terminate at 4th & King?</I><BR/><BR/>If the train-box is not funded, that is precisely what the point of Prop H would be.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/02/BA1J166LH6.DTL" REL="nofollow">SFGate.com 2 March 2009</A>: "<I>As it stands, the first phase of the project would be built without a "train box," the skeleton of the underground train station. The idea is to build it later, when funding becomes available. But building the train box in the first phase could shave an estimated $100 million off the $490 million cost.</I>"<BR/><BR/>There was an mandate in the Australian Constitution to build a rail line from South Australia to Darwin in the Northern Territory, as part of the handover of the territory from South Australia to the Australian Commonwealth ... but without funding and without a deadline, that rail line was built after the centennial of the Constitution.<BR/><BR/>And of course, if your concern is with the needs of Caltrain, it bears remembering that its not just CAHSRA that says there's problem with the designs: "<I>The problems aren't insurmountable, said Michael Scanlon, executive director of the Peninsula Corridor Joint Powers Board, which operates Caltrain. But, he said, they require additional engineering work.<BR/><BR/>"The current alignment and design is fatally flawed," Scanlon told the Metropolitan Transportation Commission governing board last week.</I>"BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35822532369910197202009-03-20T14:21:00.000-07:002009-03-20T14:21:00.000-07:00It's not the stereotypes I've been fed. I've read ...It's not the stereotypes I've been fed. I've read what the people who oppose these development projects in New York say themselves. There's a lot of resentment toward megaprojects in Harlem. People here don't ever invoke property values; in Upper Manhattan, home ownership is in the single digits. Nor do they rant about noise, or infrastructure. Instead, they talk about affordable housing, which is a real problem if you're poor and living in an expensive region. And they talk about how slumlords exploit immigrants with poor English skills. They're often allied with outer borough NIMBYs who share their opposition to Bloomberg-style urban renewal, but their concerns are entirely different.<BR/><BR/>Conversely, let's look at what Palo Altans here say against HSR. They never mention any issue with poverty or discrimination. Instead, they let everyone know that Palo Alto is a rich city that can gather "legal advice and expert testimony," that it's more important than Visalia, that its top-100 school is too important, that it has the power to sue the project to oblivion. You're speaking power to truth, and then wondering why everyone else hates you.<BR/><BR/>I'm not interested in getting income statements from people here. People make what they make. But I'll bet you even money that the median household income among the people who signed the anti-HSR petition is over $200,000 a year. If you're willing to go down to $150,000, the median for Palo Alto families, I'll give you 2-to-1 odds.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64529093954412802442009-03-20T14:15:00.000-07:002009-03-20T14:15:00.000-07:00SNCF very interested in operating a high speed rai...SNCF <A HREF="http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSLK193520090320" REL="nofollow">very interested</A> in operating a high speed rail line in the US.<BR/><BR/>Haha the United States can't get off their asses fast enough to get HSR up and running so France is going to do it themselves. God, I love France.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-612137218661897412009-03-20T13:54:00.000-07:002009-03-20T13:54:00.000-07:00Larry Page is tearing down more homes than HSR wil...Larry Page is tearing down more homes than HSR will in Palo Alto. <BR/><BR/>http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/story.php?story_id=10632Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14326480268594248452009-03-20T13:28:00.000-07:002009-03-20T13:28:00.000-07:00http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09317.pdf?source=rahttp://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09317.pdf?source=raAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66187816696715544842009-03-20T13:03:00.000-07:002009-03-20T13:03:00.000-07:00Caltrain track is already splitting the neighborho...Caltrain track is already splitting the neighborhoods. Currently only some streets in the peninsula have grade crossings or overpasses. So how can HSR be any worse? An aerial structure nicely designed with several arches like a Roman acqueduct would provide a seamless flow between the two sides of the track and could even be pretty to look at. And the comparison with pre Loma Prieta aerial structures of 101 in SF or 880 in Oakland is improper. Those were much wider than the HSR aerial structure would be, and certainly they weren't designed with any aesthetical aim in mind. If one has to tunnel through the entire peninsula because of these NIMBYs, then it might indeed be cheaper and better to go up the East bay to downtown Oakland and let San Franciscans take BART to it. They do it now to go to OAK airport to catch Southwest to LA anyway!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-92157891175136805902009-03-20T12:39:00.000-07:002009-03-20T12:39:00.000-07:00The HSR will put all the "poor" people like 'resid...The HSR will put all the "poor" people like 'resident to work then!<BR/>must be hard support 600-700K homes on those "low wages" down there in Menlo and PAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com