tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post34922702845528263..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: What's Up At The New York Times?Robert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-50793898145685712572009-08-19T00:50:15.377-07:002009-08-19T00:50:15.377-07:00oh wait that already happened.oh wait that already happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-48440729508955041932009-08-19T00:49:34.931-07:002009-08-19T00:49:34.931-07:00those countries are too small to spread out.
yo...those countries are too small to spread out. <br /><br />you'll have about as much luck getting americans to give up cars getting them to give up guns.<br /><br />and no matter what you do a city, a large chunk of the population will just keep moving further and further out to get away from the new people. until they wind up in colorado and oregon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-53697522608046586712009-08-18T17:18:15.460-07:002009-08-18T17:18:15.460-07:00european cities aren't dense because of the hi...<i>european cities aren't dense because of the high cost of car travel, they're dense because they are a zillion years old and that's how they've always lived.</i><br /><br />Jim, American cities were dense until the car came around, and didn't remain so <i>because</i> of the low cost of car travel and other policies encouraging low density growth. Turn of the 20th century America had cities just as dense as turn of the 20th century Europe. The reason that Europe stayed that way and America didn't was almost entirely because of automobile policies, not because the Europeans were "used to it." All of humanity was "used to it."Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-72814784092309029162009-08-18T17:01:27.121-07:002009-08-18T17:01:27.121-07:00Tokyo, which was tiny until the 1860s
Alon, Edo (a...<i>Tokyo, which was tiny until the 1860s</i><br />Alon, <a href="http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/edo.html" rel="nofollow">Edo</a> (as Tokyo was called) almost certainly had a million residents by 1701, and was probably the world's largest city through the century.( ^ω^)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77993079996324955752009-08-18T15:43:44.977-07:002009-08-18T15:43:44.977-07:00no one in america wants to live like they do in to...<i>no one in america wants to live like they do in tokyo piled on top of each other</i><br /><br />Jim, have you ever been to Tokyo? I know you have the love for the French and their trains and a stated dislike for Japanese trains. Lots of San Francisco is just as piled on top of each other as Tokyo is. And Tokyo has lovely parks too.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14836900171535051552009-08-18T15:21:25.606-07:002009-08-18T15:21:25.606-07:00No wonder tickets for that train cost an arm and a...<em>No wonder tickets for that train cost an arm and a leg</em>.<br /><br />Much more likely that they can fill them charging an arm and a leg - they charge an arm and leg because they can. Part of the reason they charge an arm and leg is because there are no coach seat. It's business class and first class or take a regional instead. Different levels of service usual command different price levels. When they don't fill them the prices drop. Sometimes as low as on the regionals - where all the coach passengers are...Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-74246740909496731482009-08-18T14:11:06.475-07:002009-08-18T14:11:06.475-07:00No one? New York City is almost as dense as Tokyo;...No one? New York City is almost as dense as Tokyo; Manhattan is denser than any Tokyo neighborhood. And San Francisco is as dense as Singapore and denser than most European cities.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25249769416512327332009-08-18T12:13:59.829-07:002009-08-18T12:13:59.829-07:00and while i support TOD especially in the central...and while i support TOD especially in the central, no one in america wants to live like they do in tokyo piled on top of each other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-47689660167524930132009-08-18T12:12:29.928-07:002009-08-18T12:12:29.928-07:00those people are stlil used to living that way.those people are stlil used to living that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77374679267125505062009-08-18T12:10:20.899-07:002009-08-18T12:10:20.899-07:00european cities aren't dense because of the hi...<i>european cities aren't dense because of the high cost of car travel, they're dense because they are a zillion years old and that's how they've always lived.</i><br /><br />Tokyo, which was tiny until the 1860s, is even denser than most European cities. So are Singapore and Hong Kong, which didn't even exist until the 19th century.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71748080371983356492009-08-18T12:04:21.351-07:002009-08-18T12:04:21.351-07:00european cities aren't dense because of the hi...european cities aren't dense because of the high cost of car travel, they're dense because they are a zillion years old and that's how they've always lived.<br /><br />People already do commute from the central valley every day.<br /><br />HSR will bring TOD to central valley cities. All of those cities involved are already focusing on creating more vibrant downtows and TOD and, HSR will be one component. HSR will make the operations of local transit more efficient be create a hub area. Its a multi prong approach.<br /><br />one part downtown housing<br />one part downtown retail<br />one part downtown jobs<br />one part downtown local transit<br />and one part intercity transit to make the region as a whole more viable.<br /><br />mix and garnish with an eventual global economic upturn and serve at room temperature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80505005348199182752009-08-17T18:14:28.024-07:002009-08-17T18:14:28.024-07:00IT would be cheaper to give all the naysayers and ...IT would be cheaper to give all the naysayers and nimbys a one way ticket to the past then you can really complain about how "great"<br />it was..right old toyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39443289764166461852009-08-17T17:53:12.520-07:002009-08-17T17:53:12.520-07:00@Rafael: just how significant the phenomenon will ...@Rafael: <i>just how significant the phenomenon will be remains to be seen, it essentially depends on the volume of TOD and/or the availability of connecting transit.</i><br /><br />And I think the huge ridership increase associated with the Baby Bullets is a strong indicator of the increase in demand when service times are reduced.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33805445526842423492009-08-17T17:45:02.178-07:002009-08-17T17:45:02.178-07:00@ Alon Levy -
I'm not suggesting that long-di...@ Alon Levy -<br /><br />I'm not suggesting that long-distance commuting is for everyone, just that there is no basis for asserting HSR will do nothing to change commute patterns in California. Just how significant the phenomenon will be remains to be seen, it essentially depends on the volume of TOD and/or the availability of connecting transit.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90864560802286829042009-08-17T17:23:43.926-07:002009-08-17T17:23:43.926-07:00Bianca, on the Tokaido Shinkansen, 9 trains per ho...Bianca, on the Tokaido Shinkansen, 9 trains per hour are Nozomi, compared with 2 Hikari and 2 Kodama. While some commuters use those Kodama trains to get to Tokyo, they're a small minority of both HSR riders (who usually go from Tokyo to Osaka) and commuters (who usually take the the low-speed trains).Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-48239039297514136832009-08-17T16:52:53.329-07:002009-08-17T16:52:53.329-07:00Alon, when we were traveling around Japan on the J...Alon, when we were traveling around Japan on the JR pass, we could not use it on the <i>Nozomi</i> express trains but we had plenty of alternatives on the <i>Hikari</i> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodama_(train)" rel="nofollow">Kodama</a> trains. <br /><br />Per the wikipedia piece linked above, "<i> Most Kodama trains have both reserved and non-reserved cars; however, some morning Kodama trains to Tokyo and evening trains departing Tokyo have non-reserved cars only to accommodate commuters living in Kanagawa and Shizuoka</i>.<br /><br /><br />I don't know how many people would use HSR for daily commuting. Currently though there are lots of people in the Silicon Valley who have to go into San Francisco for the occasional meeting and currently drive- because Caltrain runs local during off-peak hours so it takes too long and/or 4th& King is too far from their meeting to be convenient. So they deal with the lousy traffic on 101, and pay through the nose for parking in downtown SF. <br /><br />A lot of those people drive now because they don't see a better alternative. But offer them a 20 minute ride into downtown SF on HSR and they'll quickly make the switch. When you factor in what parking costs in the financial district, even a fairly pricey fare can be competitive if it's just a few times a month or so.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41744687790225594212009-08-17T16:24:49.886-07:002009-08-17T16:24:49.886-07:00Ross Douthat and David Brooks get to write for the...Ross Douthat and David Brooks get to write for the New York Times multiple times per week. Does that make them into representatives of Obama's official views?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-27572434360713799172009-08-17T16:19:19.372-07:002009-08-17T16:19:19.372-07:00Given that the NYT is one of the several official ...Given that the NYT is one of the several official mouthpieces of the Obama administration, I'm guessing he's not so hot on HSR? Hilarious. <br /><br />Work on those Nutrootz, and quick! Your influence is waning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-18957676540461226752009-08-17T16:08:11.882-07:002009-08-17T16:08:11.882-07:00HSR has actually created a new class of long-dista...<i>HSR has actually created a new class of long-distance train commuters in Japan, France and elsewhere.</i><br /><br />Yes, it's created a small class of long-distance train commuters. I don't know about France, but in Japan most trains run express between major cities.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41356909387052231672009-08-17T15:50:44.806-07:002009-08-17T15:50:44.806-07:00@Rafael: Almost makes you wonder why they don'...@Rafael: <i>Almost makes you wonder why they don't just terminate the HSR starter line at Fullerton in phase 1 and extend it to San Diego via Corona in phase 2, doesn't it? Almost. The Disneyland monorail couldn't possibly run all the way to Fullerton ;^)</i><br /><br />I think the main reason is so that people can get from Downtown LA to Angel Stadium faster than they can get from DTLA to Dodger Stadium :-)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14495049685090749192009-08-17T15:40:10.949-07:002009-08-17T15:40:10.949-07:00Anon said...
"People in California use cars t...Anon said...<br />"<i>People in California use cars to get to work, and to get to the grocery store, and to get the kids to ... a million little 5-20 mile distance reasons). HSR will get people from SF to LA or other long distance trips, but it will not take the need for any auto trips out of the equation for average californian's</i>"<br /><br />True but a red herring. Neither do air flights allow a Californian to do without a car, and yet airport infrastructure was still build.<br /><br />"<i>It also does not take away any of the need for the maintenance of the auto infrastructure (long distance or short distance).</i>"<br /><br />This, on the other hand, is simply absurd. If millions of longer distance auto trips per year are diverted as rail travel, that means that less long distance road infrastructure is needed. If we assume population growth in California over the next twenty to thirty years, what it means is postponing the time that new highway projects need to be started to cope with road congestion.<br /><br />It is true that it will not solve the problem of forcing too many Californians to drive shorter distances without freedom of choice of what form of transport they prefer, but that is a freedom to be provided by investment in transport infrastructure that provides more options for short distance travel.<br /><br />Since you are an Anony-mouse, I cannot even speculate what you have against freedom of choice for Californians.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14254286027991881112009-08-17T15:30:24.182-07:002009-08-17T15:30:24.182-07:00@Devil's Advocate
HSR doesn't induce TOD?...@Devil's Advocate<br /><br />HSR doesn't induce TOD? Developers seem to already be <a href="http://www.sdbj.com/industry_article.asp?aID=81208308.5268931.1815918.9436549.9760233.468&aID2=139677" rel="nofollow">making plans</a> for TOD around HSR stations.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21027077978890725102009-08-17T14:58:32.736-07:002009-08-17T14:58:32.736-07:00Rafael
Thanks much for your comments.
This discu...Rafael<br /><br />Thanks much for your comments.<br /><br />This discussion about not being able to run HSR on separated segments starts at 1 hr 22 minutes into the video of the workshop.<br /><br />It was stated that this would be the case not only on LA to Anaheim, but also on SF to SJ.Morris Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-83783172090820125952009-08-17T14:25:38.079-07:002009-08-17T14:25:38.079-07:00"HSR's main stated goal is to compete wit..."HSR's main stated goal is to compete with air travel, but will also be used by some as a commute method"<br /><i>This is not likely. High prices of HSR generally prevent people from using it as a commuting option.</i><br /><br />Poeple are willing to spend more money for premium service. If you can provide them with a more comfortable, faster option, they will pay more for it. See first class on airplanes. See the luxury bus service from Marin to SF. People are already spending hours in traffic, a 60 mile trip costs about $10 plus any bridge toll, plus car maintenance, plus added insurance costs. To get a faster, more comfortable trip that they can relax, work, or sleep during will be quite attractive to a number of people, even at a higher cost.<br /><br />"HSR will also lead to more transit oriented development practices in the 100% sprawl oriented Central Valley."<br /><i>There is no evidence of this. HSR will not favor more transit oriented development the same way that airports don't do that. What creates more transit oriented development is commuting transit (subways, regional trains, buses), not long distance rail like HSR.</i><br /><br />There's plenty of evidence. It's all over europe and asia. It can even be found in certain parts of the US.<br /><br />People actively avoid living around airports, while the exact opposite is true for train stations. Proximity to BART is a selling point for a home, I've never seen anybody advertise a home for sale pointing out that it's close to an airport.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40131887893610391892009-08-17T13:58:42.920-07:002009-08-17T13:58:42.920-07:00@ Devil's Advocate -
HSR has actually created...@ Devil's Advocate -<br /><br />HSR has actually created a new class of long-distance train commuters in Japan, France and elsewhere. They live and work close to public transit so they don't have to own and operate an additional car just to get to work.<br /><br />In France, the cities of Tours (Loire Valley) and Reims (Champagne) both have quite a few "navetteurs a grande vitesse".<br /><br />As for HSR stations being like airport: you have obviously completely missed the point. HSR station are typically in downtown areas and do not blight development for miles around with noise. A couple of hundred feet to either side, maybe. But not miles.<br /><br />Also, no toxic <i>tailpipe</i> emissions and service to multiple cities - including fairly small ones - along the route.<br /><br />Planes are best for trips of 500 miles or more, across water or to places too remote to justify fast train service. Short-hop flights are wasteful.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.com