tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post505330755430331720..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: New Pro-HSR Group Forms on PeninsulaRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-18895388322931092172009-11-04T14:57:53.449-08:002009-11-04T14:57:53.449-08:00thanksthanksdomushttp://www.maya-edu.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-54892228587530028042009-11-02T20:36:58.513-08:002009-11-02T20:36:58.513-08:00Does this organization have a Web site?Does this organization have a Web site?Evannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-86045010203155426302009-11-02T15:51:12.820-08:002009-11-02T15:51:12.820-08:00Logic is easy.
The cited passenger numbers are co...Logic is easy.<br /><br />The cited passenger numbers are completely bogus. Logic dictates that CA can't afford to have a shiny choo-choo for the train-erotics around here.<br /><br />The budget numbers are bogus. It will cost a lot more.<br /><br />Californians will be on the hook for the cost overruns.<br /><br />Your support for HSR is based on a complete fallacy.<br /><br />So, where's your logic? Or are you too busy on the can looking at the new HSR centerfold?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51580268677875035642009-11-02T13:30:41.556-08:002009-11-02T13:30:41.556-08:00It's not just corporations that support HSR in...It's not just corporations that support HSR in Palo Alto. Slowly but surely, <a href="http://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/index.php?i=3&d=&t=9626" rel="nofollow">residents in favor of the project</a> are venturing forth into the NIMBYs' favorite forum, Palo Alto Online.<br /><br />Some opponents are still putting out incorrect information such as "While the trains may be quieter than Caltrains, the horns will not be." I'm not sure if that's just ignorance of when and why FRA requires train operators to sound their horns or deliberate FUD.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-47577311146545715272009-11-02T13:14:07.581-08:002009-11-02T13:14:07.581-08:00Maybe the Palo Alto folks could start "save m...Maybe the Palo Alto folks could start "save my multi-million dollar view of the great phallic Hoover Tower"<br /><br />Not as catchy as "save the bay" but, well, neither is their cause.Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-24041956316369855652009-11-02T13:06:15.651-08:002009-11-02T13:06:15.651-08:00For those who are heralding the arrival (finally) ...For those who are heralding the arrival (finally) of big business political and marketing $$$ into California's HSR - I highly recommend the PBS documentary "Saving the Bay", the history of San Francisco Bay. (running on KTEH on Thursday's through NOvember.) Not only fascinating history on development of the SF Bay since the arrival of the first settlers, but also a great David vs Goliath tale on Nimbyism and dense development pressures in the 60s and 70s. <br />http://www.savingthebay.org/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14785124225915317642009-11-02T12:35:36.667-08:002009-11-02T12:35:36.667-08:00Anon said: "The Bay Bridge cost escalation wa...Anon said: "<i>The Bay Bridge cost escalation was from just over a billion to more than six billion.</i>"<br /><br />And that was with segmenting the construction to get each segment in under the thresholds where "Buy American Steel" kicked in, allowing Chinese suppliers to low bid.<br /><br />However, although I don't read the Bay Area press, I'm sure <i>that</i> worked out well.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25065176902695560402009-11-02T12:09:10.779-08:002009-11-02T12:09:10.779-08:00O/T:
Deutsche Bahn will offer its corporate custo...O/T:<br /><br />Deutsche Bahn will <a href="http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,ra3m1/wirtschaft/767/493117/text/" rel="nofollow">offer</a> its corporate customers eco-tickets with a guarantee that the associated electricity will be purchased exclusively from renewable sources located in Germany - primarily hydro power.<br /><br />The regular grid mix is 34.5% anthracite, 25.9% nuclear, 13.1% lignite and just 16% renewable. Compliance with the specifications of the new offering will be verified by TUeV SUed, though it is not immediately clear if it will be based on the number of available seats or those actually occupied.<br /><br />The non-discounted fare from Berlin to Frankfurt increases by just EUR 0.76 (~$1) if the eco option is chosen. Note that DB is not adding any renewable electricity generating capacity of its own nor does it require utilities to do so.<br /><br />DB isn't offering the new eco-tickets to the general public at this time, so you won't find them on the railway's web site.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57806200626141141552009-11-02T11:17:04.196-08:002009-11-02T11:17:04.196-08:00Sorry, no, what it means is that they will be prov...Sorry, no, what it means is that they will be providing political support. Those businesses are not in the, well, business of building infrastructure. <br /><br />They will provide a powerful counterpoint to people whining about property values.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-84725813819256305212009-11-02T11:13:50.537-08:002009-11-02T11:13:50.537-08:00The good news is that now we have all these big bu...The good news is that now we have all these big businesses stepping up to the plate to get this built -we'll have PLENTY of funding for the appropriate design and mitigations needed to get it done properly. <br /><br />And since massive cost escalation (compared to the 'no-one-ever- really-believed-$33B-number'), is a given, the 'tunnels will put us over budget' excuse pretty much flies out the window. <br /><br />So all in all, with this good news of the Peninsula big businesses stepping in, even less reason to avoid tunneling the Peninsula, and even less reasons to suggest that damaged neighborhoods should put up their own ransom money to avoid negative impacts. <br /><br />And the really excellent news for HSR lovers and HSR deniers alike, is that with California businesses underwriting the potential operating losses (which tax payers will not be underwriting), this simply blasts this whole debate about profitability, over blown ridership demand, low balled ticket prices, infrastructure subsidized or not to be subsidized, out of the water. Deniers - be gone! We'll now have our biggest coalitions of California big business investing and guaranteeing the HSR operating break even. <br /><br />Won't we? I mean, that's what this news about the big business coalition throwing all their support behind HSR means, right?<br /><br />Thank GOODNESS all these big businesses are riding in now to save the day and get this thing done already.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-30334809105744434972009-11-02T11:07:30.305-08:002009-11-02T11:07:30.305-08:00O/T:
South Korea will likely throw its hat in the...O/T:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2009/08/123_49981.html" rel="nofollow">South Korea</a> will likely throw its hat in the California HSR ring. No surprise there, they've invested heavily in developing a high-speed train of their own after buying Alstom trains for the first generation of the KTX service.<br /><br />The KTX-II, derived from the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSR-350x" rel="nofollow">HSR-350x</a> development platform, is now in commercial service in South Korea and also being produced under license in Turkey. Note that the design relies on conventional tractor-trailer configurations, cp. TGV and Talgo 350. The passengers cars are all unpowered.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-27231520423525087582009-11-02T10:10:24.821-08:002009-11-02T10:10:24.821-08:00@ Anon
I'll have to agree with you on that. C...@ Anon<br /><br />I'll have to agree with you on that. Cost escalation happens in essentially ANY project. It doesn't matter what the project is or who builds it. Think about how much the extra freeway lane miles would cost that would have to be built if HSR wasn't built. What would the cost overruns be on those? Simply stating that a project will have cost overruns is not a sufficient reason to kill an otherwise legitimate project. You also have to consider how much the replacement project will go over budget.<br /><br />Look at the Space Shuttle replacement program. The replacement they were looking at years ago (that looked like a literal "pie in the sky") was killed because of cost overruns. Now we're designing the CEV, and who knows whether that will ever be completed, or how much THAT will go over budget. <br /><br />You have to build something at some point somewhere.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-59376412895079890372009-11-02T09:40:46.659-08:002009-11-02T09:40:46.659-08:00The Bay Bridge cost escalation was from just over ...The Bay Bridge cost escalation was from just over a billion to more than six billion. If HSR can do better than road and airport projects in terms of cost escalation, I'll be happy. There isn't any way that we can just build nothing, so might as well build something more useful than what isn't working now, regardless of cost escalation, since that comes with ANY infrastructure project.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79083386014751131722009-11-02T09:37:11.185-08:002009-11-02T09:37:11.185-08:00And so I assume we'll see these businesses put...And so I assume we'll see these businesses putting their $$$ on the line to fund the gap in building costs, and fund the guarantees on that HSR will not operate at a loss? <br /><br />I think not. I think this is more of what we've already seen, which is big business salivating over big business's chance to sink their teeth into juicy Peninsula real estate development and juicy tax payer subsidized stimulus.<br /><br />If they're so darn hot on high speed rail, its not a PR campaign they need, they just need to send in their billion dollar checks to get it built. Are alot of those rolling in all of a sudden? I doubt it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52883883691607050062009-11-02T09:35:21.906-08:002009-11-02T09:35:21.906-08:00One likely source of cost escalation of the Caltra...One likely source of cost escalation of the Caltrain project would have been grade separations, since with the increase in frequency of Caltrain services there would be more intersections where the gates would cause extended queues during peak hours.<br /><br />The HSR project must include full grade separation and full electrification, which means the substations and pole interconnections have to be in place in any event, so the cost of the Caltrain electrification would lose any grade separations it had picked up along the way and a large chunk of the support infrastructure for the catenary.<br /><br />That would leave the rolling stock as the major cost, the local track catenary and supports a secondary cost, and everything else carried by the HSR upgrade.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38075517890057507692009-11-02T09:25:42.003-08:002009-11-02T09:25:42.003-08:00A little typo in the article: "Most Peninsula...A little typo in the article: "<i>Most Peninsula NIMBYs are those who were the "winners" of the late 20th century economy, those who own property near the tracks and <b><i>prefer</i></b> to maintain that asset value at the expense of the economic prosperity of others</i>"<br /><br />"prefer" should read "fantasize that they will be able"<br /><br />Bear in mind that if there is any <i>relative</i> change in property values of properties adjoining the corridor to those two and more lots away from the corridor, it is more than offset by the <b><i>absolute</i></b> benefit to all property values from having high frequency, oil-independent transport in the form of electric Caltrain services.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-22023365702439215122009-11-02T08:21:57.023-08:002009-11-02T08:21:57.023-08:00@ Jim, looking on, Elizabeth -
Jim's numbers ...@ Jim, looking on, Elizabeth -<br /><br />Jim's numbers refer to just the electrification portion. Looking on's refer to electrification <i>plus</i> grade separation.<br /><br />Apples and oranges.<br /><br />It doesn't really advance the conversation much to be throwing numbers around without supporting documents that spell out exactly what the bottom line number actually covers. For example, is the new train control system included? How about rebuilding Caltrain stations where the tracks end up elevated or underground? <br /><br />At this point, what Caltrain says grade separation for just two tracks would cost is at best a check on what CHSRA claims it will cost for four. The objective is to grade separate the entire right of way.<br /><br />Note that the cost of grade separation does not <i>necessarily</i> increase linearly with the number of tracks, especially for under- and overpasses across tracks that remain at grade.<br /><br />Also note that the largest single line item in any electrification project is usually the construction of the substations. In the context of the SF peninsula, those will be shared by both HSR and Caltrain, as will the poles and/or headspans. In other words, Caltrain electrification becomes an inexpensive by-product of HSR electrification.<br /><br />Leveraging the HSR project to make infrastructure improvements Caltrain has long sought but never had the funding to do on its own is precisely why PCJPB has entered into a MOU with CHSRA on sharing the right of way.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57390876164627834412009-11-02T08:00:27.809-08:002009-11-02T08:00:27.809-08:00@looking my numbers came from a rail 2000 publi...@looking my numbers came from a rail 2000 publication I didn't make them up. They were low because they were old. I didn't make them up. Ignore this post ok.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79253223134475047572009-11-02T07:53:29.386-08:002009-11-02T07:53:29.386-08:00You are missing the forest for the trees.
The big...You are missing the forest for the trees.<br /><br />The big deal is that the HSR $4.2 billion number for the Peninsula did not have a single dollar in it for Caltrain electrification.<br /><br />As per various MOUs, HSR was always on the hook to help pay it for in exchange for use of the ROW.<br /><br />The exclusion of this number, along with actual tracks for Caltrain, along with modification of current grade separations, along with REBUILDING all the current Caltrain stations is why the $4.2 billion number is in the process of being revised up by CHSRA, way up.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05468739359543614826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26888015138494120332009-11-02T06:17:13.848-08:002009-11-02T06:17:13.848-08:00a small meta point -
the purpose of arguing with ...a small meta point -<br /><br />the purpose of arguing with trolls is not to convince the troll, but rather to provide a better argument to the lurking reader who is not as monomaniacally fixed in their opinion and thus can potentially be convinced.<br /><br />as much fun as it is to yell insults at people who irritate you, that doesn't actually do you much good with the lurkers.無名 - wu minghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01078479850722724885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41233226109889726532009-11-02T05:51:24.205-08:002009-11-02T05:51:24.205-08:00My 4.9 billon for electrification and grade separa...My 4.9 billon for electrification and grade separation came from a CalTrain representative , who gave me that number at a meeting a couple of months ago. (again that was for 2 tracks ).<br /><br />You can keep your heads in the sand and ignore what is being slowly revealed on cost structures, but this article and the now in black and white numbers on the LA to Anaheim route having doubled in cost from 1 year ago are real. <br /><br />Jim's numbers are just pure fantasy; they don't agree with anything published, including the cost estimate given by the Authority to the Feds, for their stimulus application. Ignore his rant, which is what I in general do with all his postings.<br /><br />At the next board meeting this Thursday, maybe we will learn a bit more about costs, since they are set to do some sort of discussion of the new business plan which is due Dec 15th. The Authority will produce this one, whether they like it or not, because if they don't, they won't get funded for the seconds half of this fiscal year. <br /><br />The Simitian/ Lowenthal sub-committee means business this time, and the Authority knows it. How are they now going to claim they can't produce it, claiming they have no funds, when they are spending $9 million to hire a PR firm to spread the propaganda the Authority wants to indoctrinate in all Californians.looking onnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38808480541111154772009-11-01T23:15:00.348-08:002009-11-01T23:15:00.348-08:00@Cost Control
Though I don't see the sub $200...@Cost Control<br /><br />Though I don't see the sub $200m number anywhere, after looking back at a bunch of CalTrain's documents, there does seem to be a general trend of cost escalation on the electrification project (not to mention scaling back to SF-SJ instead of Gilroy). What I really want to know is WHY the costs are escalating so much.<br /><br />One thing to note though - it does not seem appropriate to take one example (CalTrain electrification) and assume that the same thing will happen to HSR. Rather, the possibility of cost escalation should be acknowledged and steps taken to prevent it. Prevention is critical, especially, since, I will admit, there does seem to be a general trend of projects going over-budget, between BART to SFO, the new Bay Bridge, OAC, and now this. Oddly enough, for one reason or another, the problem seems to be focused on the Bay Area.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-82349376296504893842009-11-01T22:55:02.105-08:002009-11-01T22:55:02.105-08:00Well, I understand the nimbys being concerned but...Well, I understand the nimbys being concerned but the thing is, they can't seem to stick to a story.<br />Are they arguing cost because they live near the tracks and are just trying to throw out whatever will stick or are they tax tightwads who don't care about noise but use it as an excuse cuz they hate spending money, Are they concerned about mitigated and tunneling, or are they folks who want to kill the project altogether because they don't like the route that was chosen?<br /><br />Hard to tell who is who and who is lying and who is telling the truth.<br /><br />The reason they are slippery like this is because they know that any real reason they have, can't stand up to logical arguments and solutions ( its like trying to argue with a right winger on the bible or something, they will never give you a straight answer)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26988534309355725702009-11-01T22:51:15.969-08:002009-11-01T22:51:15.969-08:00Caltrain's original number was far less than $...Caltrain's original number was far less than $831 million. The $831 million may be a recent estimate, but the number was less than $200 million only a few years ago. The figure has been skyrocketing, and electrification is not even a complex construction project.Cost Controlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25994198698602136512009-11-01T22:40:32.992-08:002009-11-01T22:40:32.992-08:00LETS type this real clear..these babies moved next...LETS type this real clear..these babies moved next to a 140 year old railroad...got that? now they are whinning that they are being abused..got that..is that clear?NONIMBYSnoreply@blogger.com