tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post5253644590718383978..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: FRA Guidelines On Federal Funds For HSRRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33252993432013034392009-06-21T22:24:27.470-07:002009-06-21T22:24:27.470-07:00What nobody here wants to address is the plain har...What nobody here wants to address is the plain hard fact, that UPRR still owns inter city passenger rights from SF to San Jose. Thy also have in their track rights agreement, the right to veto any change to the tracks that they feel would affect their service. <br /><br />Thus far UPRR has only said they will not allow HSR on the San Jose to Gilroy segment; they not only own the track right there, they own the corridor.<br /><br />They are the big elephant in the room so far as getting from SF to San Jose is concerned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45212128958087169272009-06-20T12:50:47.779-07:002009-06-20T12:50:47.779-07:00If capacity becomes a problem, bypass tracks can b...<em>If capacity becomes a problem, bypass tracks can be used at stations where only locals stop</em><br /><br />Probably be cheaper to run faster expresses - capable of 125 - than tear down the station(s) The people on the expresses get faster service as a byproductAdirondackernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-82644842441702375032009-06-20T12:44:51.285-07:002009-06-20T12:44:51.285-07:00Matt said...
"If capacity becomes a problem, ...Matt said...<br />"<i>If capacity becomes a problem, bypass tracks can be used at stations where only locals stop.</i>"<br /><br />Even when the HSR system is fully built out, it will have a central trunk with branches at both ends. The 5 minute headways on the CV trunk with some traffic bound from SoCal for Sacramento ensures tha there will be open slots on the HSR corridor between SF and SJ.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77724990481457444382009-06-20T01:24:14.390-07:002009-06-20T01:24:14.390-07:00Arthur,
The reason that there will be dedicated H...Arthur,<br /><br />The reason that there will be dedicated HSR along LA-ANA is that the local trains there are diesel. All trains along the peninsula would be electric. (except for a few late night freight runs) HSR would be on the high speed tracks while electrified caltrain could use the high speed tracks to pass slower trains. There is no reason why this can not, or will not be done as long as PCT is used. <br /><br />a 90~110mph train has no problem using the 125mpg high speed tracks to pass as long as it is scheduled correctly. If capacity becomes a problem, bypass tracks can be used at stations where only locals stop. The LA-ANA corridor will have much slower diesel metrolink and Amtrak, which would take much more time to pass.<br /><br />The idea that the increased investment into the peninsula corridor will reduce service is wrong. CAHSR doeos better with a successful caltrain to feed passengers into the HSR system.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621524688754424783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-92088338726464623732009-06-19T10:41:47.529-07:002009-06-19T10:41:47.529-07:00Arthur Dent said...
"The sticking point will ...Arthur Dent said...<br />"<i>The sticking point will probably be CHSRA not wanting to share their tracks since it would “impact the capacity and performance of operations to meet the Phase 1 Service Plan”.</i>"<br /><br />So your argument is that the HSR will not be able to use the corridor because of the obstinate refusal of the CHSR to share the corridor.<br /><br />When one of these long, multi-step hairy dog stories about why HSR can't work rests on "I assume that the CHSR will shoot itself in the foot", its not the strongest of arguments.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-89762442375967442552009-06-18T18:58:05.914-07:002009-06-18T18:58:05.914-07:00Arthur Dent, for Caltrain to lose its passing trac...Arthur Dent, for Caltrain to lose its passing track, the corridor will have to have barriers separating local and express tracks, as well as an SFFS configuration. Both are possible, but neither is certain or even likely.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76981713689093871062009-06-18T18:22:32.179-07:002009-06-18T18:22:32.179-07:00Lets just say the FRA is really really stupid and ...Lets just say the FRA is really really <b>stupid</b> and insists that compliant and non compliant trains never ever even come close to sharing track. In other words the Caltrain local has to be FRA compliant. <br /><br />With grade separation and electrification Caltrain ridership will go up. Caltrain will have to buy more trains. Why can't they buy non compliant rolling stock and run it on the non compliant tracks? Expresses only. <br /><br />Caltrain will be replacing all of it's rolling stock by the time the first HSR train rolls through. Why couldn't they replace it all with non compliant stock. Use temporal separation for the 3 freight trains a day that lumber through. Then HSR and Caltrain can use any of the tracks. Since they will be using modern signaling, any of the tracks in either direction... <br /><br />Amtrak runs on the same tracks as MBTA, SLE, Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit, SEPTA, MARC, VRE and Metra trains. The freight operators run trains on other railroad's tracks all the time. This isn't brain surgery, it's something railroads have been doing for 175 years.Adirondackernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77036123505811897122009-06-18T17:30:01.253-07:002009-06-18T17:30:01.253-07:00“I don't see any reason to believe that the FR...<i>“I don't see any reason to believe that the FRA will grant waivers for Caltrain to run 110 mph service, but not grant waivers to allow Caltrain to use a HSR track for passing - both are extremely uncharted territories that require more negotiation.”</i><br /><br />I see your point. However, there's a subtle difference between the two scenarios. Your first example involves three parties – Caltrain, UPRR and the FRA. Caltrain indicated that they believed the FRA would act in their favor. Caltrain & UPRR have co-existed long enough that they’re aware of how to deal with each other’s idiosyncrasies.<br /><br />Your second example involves four parties - CHSRA, Caltrain, UPRR and the FRA. It’s too many negotiating parties, too many widely differing agendas, and, as you point out, too many uncharted territories. With that mix, it’s every man for himself. The sticking point will probably be CHSRA not wanting to share their tracks since it would “impact the capacity and performance of operations to meet the Phase 1 Service Plan”.<br /><br /><b>CHSRA Anaheim to Los Angeles Section Alternatives Analysis Report:</b><i> “Based on the results of the operations modeling and the uncertainty of obtaining an FRA waiver to allow shared track HST operations, and due to superior operating characteristics, only the Dedicated HST Alternative meets the project purpose and need.”</i><br /><br />I doubt an FRA waiver will change their minds. They just tossed that one in for good measure. Unless Caltrain is willing to stand up for its Baby Bullet service the CHSRA will walk all over them, holding them hostage by waving the electrification bill over their heads.Arthur Denthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16780821836930957657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77204646498540044002009-06-18T16:23:26.317-07:002009-06-18T16:23:26.317-07:00The recommendations for LA could very well change ...The recommendations for LA could very well change over the next few years, considering we have a much more pro-rail administration that will likely influence to FRA a great deal. I don't think we should be dumbing down projects based on what the FRA has said in the past.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-74781015160552555322009-06-18T16:21:29.877-07:002009-06-18T16:21:29.877-07:00Arthur, why can't they simply keep a few four ...Arthur, why can't they simply keep a few four track sections (six tracks total) in areas where they have a very wide ROW and adjust the BB schedule accodingly? There's no reason to assume that Caltrain must ONLY have two tracks in areas like around Lawrence where the ROW is several hundred feet wide, even if they can't use HSR tracks.<br /><br />I don't see any reason to believe that the FRA will grant waivers for Caltrain to run 110 mph service, but not grant waivers to allow Caltrain to use a HSR track for passing - both are extremely uncharted territories that require more negotiation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-83731991032549518842009-06-18T15:38:46.544-07:002009-06-18T15:38:46.544-07:00Alon, they can only do this if HSR isn't imple...Alon, they can only do this if HSR isn't implemented as a "dedicated HST system", which the CHSRA recommended for L.A. That system has a safety wall separating HSTs from commuter/freight tracks. If they're consistent with their recommendations, Caltrain will lose its passing lane and therefore lose its ability to provide express service. Read my earlier posts in this thread for details.Arthur Denthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16780821836930957657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-11860906343973968002009-06-18T15:19:30.938-07:002009-06-18T15:19:30.938-07:00Fred, why can't Caltrain run express trains, r...Fred, why can't Caltrain run express trains, running on the local tracks except when they switch to the express tracks to overtake slower trains?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14848092409628044352009-06-18T13:52:43.415-07:002009-06-18T13:52:43.415-07:00If Caltrain doesn't care it's because with...<i>If Caltrain doesn't care it's because with HSR they get full grade separation and electrification, and as Clem stated that allows an all locals to be faster then the current Baby Bullet, meaning everybody gets faster service. Without HSR there's no grade separation or electrification.</i><br /><br />If Clem actually said this -- and I don't think he did -- he must know better. No way does an all-local EMU beat the diesel Baby Bullet service! This is easy to figure out and demonstrate. Electrification allows for trains to accelerate faster than the current diesels, but only to an extent. If you burden a service with lots of stops (all of them especially), it going to seriously slow down the service. The diesel BB can easily beat an all-local EMU. What was that about people spreading disinformation?!?<br /><br />It does concern me that the institution of Caltrain may be preoccupied with becoming a capital-construction management agency, forgetting that it is supposed to be providing and improving a regional transit service. Just as BART is captured by capital-construction interests -- going ahead with the $500 million Oakland Airport Connector during a severe budget crisis involving service cuts and fare increases -- Caltrain seems to be adopting a similar strategy: "Let's make bad deals to get stuff built, and damn the service!" Unfortunately, Caltrain has a history of being incompetent and never realizing its full potential. The Baby Bullet service was a rare exception of sanity prevailing at Caltrain, and now they want to kill it!!Fred Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-46245009197756484292009-06-18T13:30:43.198-07:002009-06-18T13:30:43.198-07:00"Without HSR there's no grade separation ...<i>"Without HSR there's no grade separation or electrification."</i><br /><br />That's not true; I sincerely hope Caltrain doesn't believe this. They are eligible to apply for ARRA on their own - perhaps even more eligible and ready for the SF-SJ section than the CHSRA.Arthur Denthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16780821836930957657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64432761222966290062009-06-18T13:24:19.039-07:002009-06-18T13:24:19.039-07:00@Anon 6:50 am:
“@Andrew - What makes you think thi...@Anon 6:50 am:<br /><i>“@Andrew - What makes you think this? You think that the FRA will grant a waiver for 110mph service without grade separations on the peninsula? I highly, highly, highly doubt that.”</i> <br /><br />I’m Arthur. Caltrain’s 2025 Plan states their optimism on being able to operate at 110 mph. From Appendix B:<br /><br /><i>"This system is still in the process of undergoing its final verification and validation and is expected to be approved for operation at speeds up to 110 mph, after the testing is completed next year. It has not been applied to provide separation of rolling stock with differing levels of buff strength to date. Caltrain expects to be the first property to demonstrate the safety of mixing differing levels of buff strength as the first vehicles to be procured for the electrification enter service."<br /><br />"By providing a positive train control system the safe separation of the different types of rolling stock can be maintained. At the present time the FRA has not approved any PTC system to provide for this separation, but we have reason to believe that the FRA would entertain an application for such a use."</i>Arthur Denthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16780821836930957657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-30850163809496976542009-06-18T13:23:41.314-07:002009-06-18T13:23:41.314-07:00"bullet service for much of the Peninsula, bu..."<i>bullet service for much of the Peninsula, but for some inexplicable reason Caltrain doesn’t seem to care</i>"<br /><br />If Caltrain doesn't care it's because with HSR they get full grade separation and electrification, and as Clem stated that allows an all locals to be faster then the current Baby Bullet, meaning everybody gets faster service. Without HSR there's no grade separation or electrification.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-44398069518709098822009-06-18T13:15:35.525-07:002009-06-18T13:15:35.525-07:00Sorry Alon/Aaron. If you had said "no one wit...Sorry Alon/Aaron. If you had said "no one with any power in the Northeast gives a damn" I would have had no comment, having no knowledge of that. But the constituents certainly give a damn. I had a business trip last year with consecutive daily meetings in DC-Philly-NYC-Stamford-Boston. Except for the NYC-Stamford leg, I took Acela the whole way, and it was great, but you wouldn't want to do DC-Boston on a business trip. If they could shave an hour or more off the travel time, though, it would start getting competitive with air travel.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00787162300960892738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-3071024717898028272009-06-18T13:14:27.828-07:002009-06-18T13:14:27.828-07:00@TomW: “Actually, the difference is a 95/110mph st...@TomW: <i>“Actually, the difference is a 95/110mph stopping service compared with a 125mph express. Caltrain has 30 stations between Gilroy and SF, while HSR will have three. Given stopping adds at least 2 minutes, I expect the HSR to be at least an hour quicker than an all-stops Caltrain.”</i><br /><br />That’s correct in theory. Look at it another way, though. Caltrain has the option of stopping at all 30 stations or just 1 – the other endpoint – or any number in between. It can <i>choose</i>. HSR can only serve stations which are specially built to accommodate it. What’s cheaper: adding HST tracks along the entire corridor or removing Caltrain stops on select routes?<br /><br />If the HSRA applies the line of reasoning they used in the LA sections and builds the Caltrain corridor as a dedicated HST system (dividing HST from commuter/freight tracks with a wall down the center of the ROW), HSR will essentially be taking away bullet service to all Peninsula residents who don’t live near a HSR station. (Tell that to the folks in Palo Alto, Redwood City and Menlo Park and they’ll all be clamoring for a HSR station!)<br /><br />The CHSRA is on a path of destroying bullet service for much of the Peninsula, but for some inexplicable reason Caltrain doesn’t seem to care and most residents are unaware. The rail service for the majority of the Peninsula will deteriorate so that people on the far ends can commute a few minutes faster. It’s mind-boggling.Arthur Denthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16780821836930957657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17786602286197509392009-06-18T12:05:12.842-07:002009-06-18T12:05:12.842-07:00claiming that the need for it will go away after e...<em>claiming that the need for it will go away after electrification</em><br /><br />Where do they say that? I've seen the charts that compare speeds of diesels to electrics and a blurb about an MU running local being faster than a Baby Bullet but that doesn't mean they won't be running limiteds and expresses.Adirondackernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51928874956432906792009-06-18T11:34:05.929-07:002009-06-18T11:34:05.929-07:00Robert, who's Aaron Levy?
More to the point, ...Robert, who's Aaron Levy?<br /><br />More to the point, I know there's a lot of ridership on the NEC. Hell, even the non-NEC lines in the Northeast, especially Empire and Keystone, get decent traffic. But the closest the local politicians come to caring is when a political leader in NY State proposes rapid rail on the Empire Corridor, with all investment on the Albany-Buffalo segment, as a way of distributing pork to Upstate politicians so that they'll support his agenda.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33397336610453134782009-06-18T10:08:47.339-07:002009-06-18T10:08:47.339-07:00Cannibalizing Caltrain in the process of building ...<i>Cannibalizing Caltrain in the process of building HSR is a destructive waste of our state/fed tax dollars</i> ...<br /><br />Amen to that!! I am very concerned about BB service; even Caltrain shows a lack of concern for it, claiming that the need for it will go away after electrification.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71412430831526040642009-06-18T09:21:30.187-07:002009-06-18T09:21:30.187-07:00@ Aaron Levy
"it also shows that nobody in ...@ Aaron Levy <br /><br />"it also shows that nobody in the Northeast gives a damn, except for Congressional staffers who have to shuttle between New York, where they beg for money, and Washington, where they spend it."<br /><br />The legislators may not get it, but their constituents do. I'm based in California but part of a work group based in DC where there is a lot of travel between there, Philly and NYC. (No it has nothing to do with government.) People fly only reluctantly, everyone is an Acela fan. If the travel time were cut more, no one would ever fly.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00787162300960892738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-34210801948988144432009-06-18T07:10:46.925-07:002009-06-18T07:10:46.925-07:00Adam, Mica has proposed that the federal governmen...Adam, Mica has proposed that the federal government get a private spinoff of Amtrak to rebuild the NEC to allow for NY-DC line haul times under 2 hours.<br /><br />Arthur, an electrified Caltrain with a top speed of 110 mph can have Baby Bullet runtimes with semi-express service. A four-track Caltrain corridor will enable those semi-express trains to run on the slow track and overtake slower trains by switching to the fast track and then switching back.<br /><br />If two tracks aren't enough capacity for Caltrain, then it can run express trains with HSR stopping pattern and 125 mph top speed on the express tracks. It will have the capacity, since 125 mph lines can run 24 trains per hour and 220 mph lines can run 12. It will be less capacity than a four-track Caltrain without any HSR, but so what? If stopping HSR at San Jose and forcing people to transfer doesn't reduce ridership, then all those extra Caltrain trains you're going to run instead of HSR will just be filled with long-distance travelers anyway.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71842207681320271312009-06-18T06:50:42.778-07:002009-06-18T06:50:42.778-07:00"Caltrain can operate at 110 mph with PTC and..."Caltrain can operate at 110 mph with PTC and a few other details which do not include grade separations; HSR cannot operate at 125 mph without grade separations. The grade separations are the trigger point."<br /><br />@Andrew - What makes you think this? You think that the FRA will grant a waiver for 110mph service without grade separations on the peninsula? I highly, highly, highly doubt that. There's just no way that we're going to see 110 mph trains flying through intersections guarded by nothing more than a flimsy lowered bar.<br /><br />The 110mph service depends on grade separating the whole shebang. If we're going to do the expensive part, why not do the rest?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73345316728593586292009-06-18T06:40:40.146-07:002009-06-18T06:40:40.146-07:00If Caltrain is correct, then what are we gaining b...<i>If Caltrain is correct, then what are we gaining by placing 125 mph HSR next to 110 mph Caltrain?</i><br />Actually, the difference is a 95/110mph stopping service compared with a 125mph express. Caltrain has 30 stations between Gilroy and SF, while HSR will have three. Given stopping adds at least 2 minutes, I expect the HSR to be at least an hour quicker than an all-stops Caltrain.<br /><br />What about the Baby Bullet? Assuming sensisble fare structure, I strongly suspect that HSR will become the 'express' service, while teh baby bullet will have more stops added and be relegated to a 'semi-fast' service. Whether or not that is a good thing is an interesting question.TomWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453251490705724225noreply@blogger.com