tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post5504966436383191704..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Don't Let Arnold Schwarzenegger Divide and ConquerRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-48004097987063632192009-11-17T11:17:40.105-08:002009-11-17T11:17:40.105-08:00Joey said...
"The chances of a car or truck o...Joey said...<br />"<i>The chances of a car or truck on an adjacent street crashing into someone's house (or several peoples' houses is infinitely more probably than the chance of a derailment. Especially on well-maintained track, like the peninsula corridor will be (as opposed to UPRR's half-century old freight tracks)</i>"<br /><br />Precisely. Most derailments can be traced back in whole or part to track maintenance issues - understandable since we subsidize competing road and air infrastructure while taxing rail infrastructure.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-1178292412854090042009-11-14T22:00:24.277-08:002009-11-14T22:00:24.277-08:00@ NONIMBYS, SF49ERS:
I deleted your comments beca...@ NONIMBYS, SF49ERS:<br /><br />I deleted your comments because they were offensive and added nothing to the discussion.<br /><br />Please keep the conversations civil. Snark is fine, swearing is not and neither is trivializing suicides on the tracks.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77942722910642439312009-11-14T21:40:07.824-08:002009-11-14T21:40:07.824-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.SF49ERSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-55836180583068850882009-11-14T21:10:10.011-08:002009-11-14T21:10:10.011-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.NONIMBYSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45996259309396316822009-11-14T17:41:03.506-08:002009-11-14T17:41:03.506-08:00@ anon @ 5:00pm -
Cap'n Obvious sez: the fenc...@ anon @ 5:00pm -<br /><br />Cap'n Obvious sez: the fences are to keep people and animals from entering the right of way. The CCTV is for detecting people, animals and debris on the tracks that shouldn't be there (and to monitor work crews). The train control system is there, among other things, to allow controllers to force trains to perform an emergency stop if there's a dangerous situation up ahead that the drivers can't even see yet.<br /><br />Jeez, some people...Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-47004390877078586932009-11-14T17:07:22.644-08:002009-11-14T17:07:22.644-08:00Ah. That makes it more or less a non-issue then.
...Ah. That makes it more or less a non-issue then.<br /><br />@Anon: The chances of a car or truck on an adjacent street crashing into someone's house (or several peoples' houses is infinitely more probably than the chance of a derailment. Especially on well-maintained track, like the peninsula corridor will be (as opposed to UPRR's half-century old freight tracks)Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70476984273784949422009-11-14T17:01:26.340-08:002009-11-14T17:01:26.340-08:00Joey, FRA regulations consider positive train cont...Joey, FRA regulations consider positive train control to be a form of guaranteed time separation. On any line where both passenger and freight trains have some form of PTC, which federal law mandates by 2012, the crash safety regulations don't apply.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17892799804809656632009-11-14T17:00:54.780-08:002009-11-14T17:00:54.780-08:00And you can be sure that the Peninsula Nimby's...And you can be sure that the Peninsula Nimby's won't watch passively.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-89489139612922377952009-11-14T17:00:30.749-08:002009-11-14T17:00:30.749-08:00"California HSR will come with fences" ..."California HSR will come with fences" What? to prevent freight trains and cargo from fouling passenger track? What the hell were you thinking they'd make those fences out of? What kind of fence contains a freight train wreck. That's just plain stupid. The only thing possible here is some sort of political move that in essence says - you go right ahead, that's a risk we'll live with. Do you think that will happen on ROW with hundreds if not thousands of residential properties, not to mention schools, stacked up right against ROW? I can understand it in some sparsely populated industrial, or some outback countryside - but in 50 miles of downtown Peninsula suburban towns? That'll be a political firestorm interesting to watch.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77700703010339705282009-11-14T15:31:14.726-08:002009-11-14T15:31:14.726-08:00@ anon @ 1:48pm -
(part 2)
For its part, UPRR do...@ anon @ 1:48pm -<br /><br />(part 2)<br /><br />For its part, UPRR does lie awake at night thinking about what might happen if one of its own freight trains <a href="http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14820438/detail.html" rel="nofollow">derails</a> or spills cargo and ends up fouling adjacent track used for passenger traffic, because of the safety hazard and financial liability that would entail.<br /><br />Now, California HSR will come with fences plus CCTV surveillance of the entire width of the right of way plus sophisticated train control. Even so, any oncoming train will require several miles of track to come to a full stop and avoid a potentially horrific follow-on accident. When you have an HSR train coming on every few minutes, the risk that at some future point in time there will be one that won't have enough run length to come to slow down sufficiently is non-zero. FRA will no doubt be looking into this when it draws up its "rule of special applicability" for California HSR.<br /><br />Curiously, fouling adjacent track is apparently only an issue for UPRR on rights of way it owns outright. In the SF peninsula, they haven't said a peep about it, perhaps because it doesn't want people in Palo Alto to start imagining what would happen if a Mission Bay Hauler slammed into the high school. Just sayin'.<br /><br />Caltrain actually maintains the geometry of its own tracks and rolling stock to the required state of good repair. In other countries as well, the risk of freight derailments and cargo spills has never been an issue.<br /><br />Is UPRR simply admitting it is too cheap to invest in proper maintenance and safety systems? If so, won't selling the part of its right of way it realistically won't ever need anyhow fund those very investments?<br /><br />For reference, UPRR runs just six trains <i>a day</i> total between San Jose and Gilroy. It could easily run 10x that number without having to add any track.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-27162482150376020402009-11-14T15:30:57.558-08:002009-11-14T15:30:57.558-08:00@ anon @ 1:48pm -
(part 1)
Plus the hsr will &qu...@ anon @ 1:48pm -<br /><br />(part 1)<br /><br /><i>Plus the hsr will "apparently" have to operate on the Caltrain alignment next to freight trackage. Please document how the hsr will be exempt from FRA concerns.</i><br /><br />The operative words here being <i>next to</i>.<br /><br />FRA gets its panties in a twist about big honking freight trains sharing <i>track</i> with "non-compliant" modern lightweight passenger rolling stock, a mode of operation referred to as "mixed traffic". In this context, non-complaint usually means a train design complies with international UIC standards rather than FRA's own. Because the US is special, don't you know.<br /><br />The primary concerns are head-on collisions and rear ending. Train-on-train collisions will always be catastrophic at even moderate relative speeds, but FRA maintains the fiction that passive safety (i.e. crumple zones) alone are the way to go, because freight railroads pay campaign contributions to politicians to avoid regulation that would force them to invest in active safety systems to structurally avoid this type of accident. Stuff that's absolutely standard everywhere else in the developed and even parts of the developing world.<br /><br />It took <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-traincrash-sg,0,5866154.storygallery" rel="nofollow">25 deaths at Chatsworth</a> to cajole politicians into <a href="http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2095" rel="nofollow">making PTC a requirement</a> by 2015 on most lines, de facto at freight rail operators' expense. Note they did not specify an off-the-shelf <a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/10/peninsula-train-control-ptc-cboss-and.html" rel="nofollow">technical standard</a> like ERTMS to implement, so expect lots of consultants getting immensely rich on developing US-only solutions that take years to debug.<br /><br />Even on purely passive safety, FRA rules are arguably <a href="http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html" rel="nofollow">designed</a> to regulate pesky passenger rail out of existence. Caltrain has managed to <a href="http://www.caltrain.com/pdf/project2025/Caltrain2025update_2008March_finalsummary.pdf" rel="nofollow">prove</a> that UIC-compliant gear performs as well or <i>better</i> in grade crossing accidents, though the most recent published version of the document has been sanitized in that regard. Caltrain does want FRA to issue a mixed traffic waiver for the SF peninusla because it will take a few years to cut over to the new EMU fleet.<br /><br />By contrast, FRA doesn't care as much about trains on adjacent track, though it has done some studies of <a href="http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/Research/ord0907.pdf" rel="nofollow">aerodynamic interactions</a> of Amtrak Acela Express passing freight trains and other object as well as passengers waiting on platforms.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-28241894104536734252009-11-14T14:33:03.775-08:002009-11-14T14:33:03.775-08:00In terms of FRA requirements on the CalTrain corri...In terms of FRA requirements on the CalTrain corridor, freight trains only run at night, which allows non-compliant trains be run during the day (the FRA allows mixed use as long as compliant and non-compliant trains are time-separated). Everywhere else, HSR will run on dedicated trackage, so it isn't a problem. There is one matter that remains to be resolved, however, and that is CalTrain's (gradual) switch to non-compliant EMUs. Assuming that the switch is carried out gradually, CalTrain will be required to run both FRA compliant locomotive-driven trains as well as non-compliant EMUs at the same time. So they may have to get a waiver from the FRA anyway. And a gradual shift would make unifying platform heights difficult too (though AFAIK there are no official plans to do this). None of this really affects HSR though, as it seems probable that CalTrain might be able to complete the switch before the HSR starter line is fully finished (the peninsula corridor being one of the first segments to be built).Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-20094905999392696542009-11-14T14:26:45.985-08:002009-11-14T14:26:45.985-08:00HSR equipment will be heavier than BART (BART is o...HSR equipment will be heavier than BART (BART is on the extremely light end). This doesn't have to do with FRA requirements though, as HSR will use non-complient equipment already.<br /><br />In terms of noise, BART is by far the loudest rail system I have ridden, and I've ridden quite a few. For someone who hadn't ridden rail outside of the bay area much, I can see how this might be used as a standard, but the truth is that BART is the exception, rather than the rule. Rail systems, high speed and conventional, around the world, even in the US, are much quieter than BART. There is no reason to assume that HSR will be anywhere as noisy as BART.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-63576932234557186562009-11-14T13:48:27.873-08:002009-11-14T13:48:27.873-08:00What kind of misinformation? BART cars are monoco...What kind of misinformation? BART cars are monocoque aluminum and very light. Please document how hsr equipment is going to be lighter than BART's.<br /><br />Plus the hsr will "äpparently" have to operate on the Caltrain alignment next to freight trackage. Please document how the hsr will be exempt from FRA concerns.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71100198873803095552009-11-14T13:09:17.849-08:002009-11-14T13:09:17.849-08:00The hsr will use solid wheels like BART but its eq...<i>The hsr will use solid wheels like BART but its equipment will likely be heavier than BART's due to FRA requirements.</i><br /><br />LOL. And people were saying that it was ridiculous for CHSRA to be combating misinformation being spouted everywhere.<br /><br />Case in point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-27618662904856322772009-11-14T13:02:44.931-08:002009-11-14T13:02:44.931-08:00wow anon you'll just throw any old thing out t...wow anon you'll just throw any old thing out there huh.<br /><br />you know if its really going to bother you THAT MUCH, then freakin move already.<br /><br />Attention everyone, from now on, we are entitled to live with exactly the existing level of noise in perpetuity. Take a reading, jot it down, and measure it weekly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52449169643033223252009-11-14T12:56:36.546-08:002009-11-14T12:56:36.546-08:00BART provides a decent real world idea of how nois...BART provides a decent real world idea of how noisy the California hsr will be. One must remember that we are in California not in Europe or Japan - with California unions, California contractors, California lawyers, California budgets and California habits concerning maintenance.<br /><br />The hsr will use solid wheels like BART but its equipment will likely be heavier than BART's due to FRA requirements.<br /><br />So take BART's hiss, rumble and squeal and multiply it by about 3 and you'll have an idea of how noisy the hsr will really be.<br /><br />The test track should be your urban elevated(how about Palmdale) to give the lie to the propaganda about the "quiet" hsr.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76043527178445937502009-11-14T12:49:49.106-08:002009-11-14T12:49:49.106-08:00Air turbulence? W. T. F.
If you're talking...Air turbulence? W. T. F.<br /><br />If you're talking about aerodynamic noise generated by 125mph trains, it's really not that much, as you would know if you had visited any other countries that have HSR operating (which I have BTW). In any case, the noise from that is certainly less than the noise of bells and horns at grade crossings. Not to mention the lack of noise from those diesel locomotives. So you have more trains, but they're much quieter. Is that really so terrible?Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-69251036258200182802009-11-14T12:42:58.776-08:002009-11-14T12:42:58.776-08:00Anon, HSR trains are designed to generate acceptab...Anon, HSR trains are designed to generate acceptable amounts of noise at 350 km/h. At 200, they actually produce less noise than the existing Caltrain trains do at their current top speed.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38920438223616224562009-11-14T12:14:51.322-08:002009-11-14T12:14:51.322-08:00Anon 10:27 LOLAnon 10:27 LOLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-47594490688247625852009-11-14T12:12:09.166-08:002009-11-14T12:12:09.166-08:00And air turbulence effects -which create noise. B...And air turbulence effects -which create noise. Big noiseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26143049223633789242009-11-14T11:56:42.075-08:002009-11-14T11:56:42.075-08:00@ anon @ 10:27am -
I think that referred to the s...@ anon @ 10:27am -<br /><br />I think that referred to the sum of projected Caltrain + HSR trains in both directions.<br /><br />Currently, Caltrain is at 5tph each way during weekday rush hour. It wants to double that by 2025, which is ambitious.<br /><br />CHSRA estimates 7-8tph each way in the SF peninsula in the 2030 timeframe. Also ambitious.<br /><br />Add them together and you get 17-18tph each way or 34-36 trains total. Not quite 40, but not all that far off.<br /><br />The big difference, of course, is that electric trains running on continuously welded and properly maintained, grade separated track generate less rail-wheel noise than existing Caltrain rolling stock does. Plus, no more bells and horns at intersections.<br /><br />Against that, you have to weigh the larger number of noise events and the knock-on effect of the additional rail capacity on local traffic/transit. Passengers have to get to the station/their final destinations somehow and not everyone/everything is going to be within walking or even bicycle distance.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-44248100389243991312009-11-14T10:51:49.835-08:002009-11-14T10:51:49.835-08:00123 123 comment should be removed...
Or are we go...123 123 comment should be removed...<br /><br />Or are we gong to start advertising "escort services here"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-44550464350249129882009-11-14T10:37:16.512-08:002009-11-14T10:37:16.512-08:00OHH Im so hurt!! NOW speaking of 5th graders why t...OHH Im so hurt!! NOW speaking of 5th graders why this crybabie constant rant about how horrible this railroad is?? sounds very child like..NO scared childern of PA/Menlopark..ect ect your little suburan world will not crumble nothing like that 8 lane 101 is even close to being planned here.And Really what is your grade school ..oh mommy bullie HSR stole my beeine today post? Like people on this board agree with you? NOW go back to little PA on line and crypost..And get a name..as if we already dont know how you are and your standard "go to" argumentNONIMBYSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-86374083461747561782009-11-14T10:27:18.081-08:002009-11-14T10:27:18.081-08:00CHSRA isn't about that - they're arrogantl...<i>CHSRA isn't about that - they're arrogantly thinking they run 120mph trains 40 per hour through people's back yards, through city parks and school yards, buy a 3 foot strip of their land to accomodate the ROW, and leave the people to suffer.</i><br /><br />LOL. 40 per hour. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com