tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post5576890530873383129..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Tuesday Open ThreadRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41827606505653884942009-11-26T22:39:16.386-08:002009-11-26T22:39:16.386-08:00I finished the book, and it only gets more polemic...I finished the book, and it only gets more polemical toward the end - the author can't resist reminding people every page that the highways were subsidized. It's grating.<br /><br />Also, I read the original dissertation rather than the book it was adapted to, and it has a lot of annoying errors - spelling errors, Freudian slips (proscribe instead of prescribe), and factual errors (e.g. it fudges the distances from Smyrna, TN to other cities downward). It's well-researched, but not well-written or even well-argued.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52018455794781639552009-11-26T15:26:10.831-08:002009-11-26T15:26:10.831-08:00Okay, now I'm reading it, and the writing styl...Okay, now I'm reading it, and the writing style is meh. Gutfreund's insistence of scare-quoting the word "expert" whenever he refers to an automobile engineer is really polemical.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80082166123536352422009-11-26T03:04:46.687-08:002009-11-26T03:04:46.687-08:00Thanks, Spokker. I tried to download it from Colum...Thanks, Spokker. I tried to download it from Columbia's website - it's free for Columbia people - but it won't let me login. I'll try again next time I'm on campus.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64807063400210565952009-11-26T02:44:36.849-08:002009-11-26T02:44:36.849-08:00Alon, it's called 20th-Century Sprawl by Owen ...Alon, it's called 20th-Century Sprawl by Owen D. Gutfreund. Not necessarily an anti-highway, anti-car book, but he's definitely against the way the United States designed, constructed and financed its highway system. He doesn't seem to have any problem with the way Eurpeans have done things, haha.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-12200795924647072672009-11-26T00:55:30.287-08:002009-11-26T00:55:30.287-08:00Brandi, the cost of a tunnel under the Hudson isn&...Brandi, the cost of a tunnel under the Hudson isn't $8 billion. The actual tunnel is budgeted at $2.4 billion; the rest of the cost is improvements on both sides of the tunnel, mainly building a new deep-level Penn Station.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-63958882975553041462009-11-26T00:54:37.621-08:002009-11-26T00:54:37.621-08:00Spokker, what's the name of the book about the...Spokker, what's the name of the book about the Interstate system that you're reading? I sounds intriguing and I may want to add it to my reading list backlog.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-54188372243330264202009-11-25T21:00:25.248-08:002009-11-25T21:00:25.248-08:00I still can't believe they only gave $8 Billio...I still can't believe they only gave $8 Billion for HSR, that doesn't even cover the cost of one train tunnel under the Hudson River. Well time to give thanks for what we got.Brandinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-67340553245448595372009-11-25T20:20:27.208-08:002009-11-25T20:20:27.208-08:00Given that the TGV world speed record achieved gre...Given that the TGV world speed record achieved greater than 350mph in its record run, and no one is even talking about more than 250 these days, I'd say that steel-wheel-on-steel-rail electrified trains have a long way to go before reaching the end of their useful, or even developmental, life yet. Sure, maglev and eventually VacTrain will probably dominate future transport (teleportation nonwithstanding ;), the latter even rendering air travel more or less obsolete. But in the mean time, conventional HSR is far from dead, and we can still invest on improving its energy efficiency and speed (probably continuing to study ways in which to make maglev feasible in the mean time too).Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-37068589197979047962009-11-25T19:01:50.552-08:002009-11-25T19:01:50.552-08:00@Rafael
Here's an Alstom document with
a TGV/...@Rafael<br />Here's an Alstom document with <br /><a href="http://www.bahnindustrie.info/uploads/media/01_Alstom.pdf" rel="nofollow">a TGV/AGV comparison </a>.<br />Other documents cite:<br />better eficiency and weight and size reduction of motors due to permanent rare-earth magnets.<br />70 tonnes weight reduction by use of composites.<br />Improved aerodynamics: nose profile, air deflectors on bogies, better surface continuity between cars.<br />Improved regenerative braking, up to 9Mw sent back to the grid.<br /><br />I found no detailed document for Bombardier. As they also use permanent magnets and know a thing or two about aerodynamics and light alloys, I suppose the Zefiro must be equivalent to the AGV.Andre Perettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21830514242203101282009-11-25T18:36:16.640-08:002009-11-25T18:36:16.640-08:00@ Anon @ 6:23
I have to agree with Bianca that fo...@ Anon @ 6:23<br /><br />I have to agree with Bianca that for right now, we should go with tried-and-true technology for HSR. That is the cheapest way to implement the system.<br /><br />Of course, we should not rest on our laurels and we should invest in developing new technologies, like maglev. They just are not ready and too expensive for large-scale commercial application.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15695665273485558752009-11-25T18:28:28.442-08:002009-11-25T18:28:28.442-08:00What should really be discussed here is why this c...<i>What should really be discussed here is why this country should be climbing on the bandwagon of technology that is so old and developed mostly elsewhere, rather than doing innovation and creating new technology.</i><br /><br />Wow, it really must grate you every time you have to ride on something with wheels on it. Such old technology.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33918560656587221612009-11-25T18:23:53.267-08:002009-11-25T18:23:53.267-08:00Peter:
Its good to see someone with real knowledg...Peter:<br /><br />Its good to see someone with real knowledge of the Air Traffic system chime in here. Rafael is a fish out of water here in this discussion; I just decided to not comment further.<br /><br />The old arguments that airports need to expand has been going on for decades. Better timetable management, better technology and the advent of larger aircraft have continually pushed back many airport expansions. <br /><br />One item I learned the other day was that Southwest is no longer opposing the Texas HSR plan --- I have no information, most likely Rafael does, but my understanding is they now approve of a Texas system. This is a complete 180 flip on their previous position.<br /><br />They virtually defeated a previous HSR project there by themselves.<br /><br />Finally I reject his assertion about battery technology being near the end of its possible improvements. <br /><br />What should really be discussed here is why this country should be climbing on the bandwagon of technology that is so old and developed mostly elsewhere, rather than doing innovation and creating new technology. Oh Well...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39316660838151662512009-11-25T16:36:45.664-08:002009-11-25T16:36:45.664-08:00@ Rafael
I'm confused about your point. Are y...@ Rafael<br /><br />I'm confused about your point. Are you saying the airlines and airports are trying to hide the fact that they want to maximize good weather capacity?<br /><br />The airlines do schedule more flights than some airports or airspace systems have the capacity for. Why do you think they just limited the amounts of flights at JFK (I think it was JFK)?<br /><br /><i>"In that case, what you need is system that can reliably control aircraft position to a tighter tolerance even when there's fog."</i><br /><br />I think you're a little overly optimistic at the ability of technology to help out SFO's poor weather capacity. Currently, Simultaneous Close Parallel ILS PRM operations at SFO require a ceiling of 2100' and 4 statute mile visibility.<br /><br />That's using runway 28L's ILS, and an LDA (a much less precise approach procedure than an ILS) for 28R. <br /><br />An ILS is currently the most reliable and precise navigational equipment for instrument approaches in operation.<br /><br />If the FAA and the airlines ever get around to implementing LAAS, then that may change.<br /><br />However, I do not see the FAA's requirements for parallel approaches changing anytime soon. If they implement LAAS, which would essentially enable autoland at any airport that is covered by LAAS, they would still have to be flying aircraft in very close proximity to each other in poor weather conditions.<br /><br />The FAA requires 2500' separation between runway centerlines for Dependent Parallel ILS Approaches, where the aircraft arrive staggered, with at least 1.5 miles radar separation diagonally between them.<br /><br />For runways operating Simultaneous Parallel ILS Approaches, where the aircraft can approach side-by-side, you need at least 4300' separation between the runway centerlines.<br /><br />You can have simultaneous close parallel approaches with runways closer than 4300', like those at SFO, but the approach minimums need to be higher (you need better weather), and the pilots need to be specially trained.<br /><br />Given that at SFO the runway centerlines are spaced <b>750'</b> apart, I don't see any sort of technological improvements increasing poor weather capacity.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13230158559498324662009-11-25T16:35:32.337-08:002009-11-25T16:35:32.337-08:00@ Rafael
"Who is running their steel wheels ...@ Rafael<br /><br />"Who is running their steel wheels trains at 410km/h in regular commercial service? Even the Chinese don't have any plans to go above 380km/h in the foreseeable future."<br /><br />Why not? I'm sure everyone thought 220 mph was way out of reach when the TGV was first developed.<br /><br />Bombardier and Talgo are both working on trains that can run at speeds of up to 236 mph. And South Korea is developing a train called the HEMU-400X that can run at speeds of up to 250 mph. This is due to enter service by 2012.HSRforCalinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-3905723304994705162009-11-25T16:16:30.933-08:002009-11-25T16:16:30.933-08:00@ Andre Peretti -
ah, ok, a typo. You're righ...@ Andre Peretti -<br /><br />ah, ok, a typo. You're right, a number of recently completed lines were designed to support commercial operations at 350-360km/h, the biggest issue is getting the signaling ironed out. Only some of the trains between Beijing and Tianjin currently reach those speeds and then only briefly, since the line is fairly short.<br /><br />Regarding the energy efficiency claims at 360-380km/h relative to the TGV at 300km/h, could you provide some links? Considering wind resistance increases with the square of velocity (all other things being equal), I'd like to know how they pull that off.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-63493455887260477102009-11-25T15:50:58.373-08:002009-11-25T15:50:58.373-08:00@Rafael
Wrong key. I meant 225mph (360km/h) which ...@Rafael<br />Wrong key. I meant 225mph (360km/h) which is the commercial speed of the future. Alstom and Bombardier claim their new trains don't consume more power at that speed than the TGV at 186mph.Andre Perettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90144394274704680902009-11-25T15:42:27.123-08:002009-11-25T15:42:27.123-08:00@ Peter -
"Safety is the precise reason why ...@ Peter -<br /><br />"Safety is the precise reason why SFO as it is today has capacity problems in poor weather conditions."<br /><br />In that case, what you need is system that can reliably control aircraft position to a tighter tolerance even when there's fog. You don't need to build a third runway in a place that's prone to fog to begin with.<br /><br />This is an example of safety being cited to hide the real intent of expanding air traffic when the weather is fair. If you want to be facetious, Oakland airport <i>is</i> the third runway, it's just not used that way because the two facilities are owned by competing entities and there's no ferry between them.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-24646295359588181922009-11-25T15:28:42.599-08:002009-11-25T15:28:42.599-08:00@ Andre Peretti -
"With 255mph becoming the ...@ Andre Peretti -<br /><br />"With 255mph becoming the standard commercial speed, the 500-mile limit may even seem too modest."<br /><br />(a) who is running their steel wheels trains at 410km/h in regular commercial service? Even the Chinese don't have any plans to go above 380km/h in the foreseeable future.<br /><br />(b) there is no formal distance limit for HSR routes. Rather, modal share against commercial flights declines gradually with distance. Somewhere along the curve, the HSR is no longer high enough to justify the capital investment and operating overheads.<br /><br />However, that decision is heavily influenced by many factors including regional equity politics, road capacity, road tolls, on-road fuel taxes, airport capacity, airport links to downtown, winter weather conditions at airports, the anticipated price of kerosene vs. electricity, sunk costs in underutilized rail tunnels etc.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-1402654794727575312009-11-25T15:11:32.216-08:002009-11-25T15:11:32.216-08:00@ All Aboard -
coal may be cheap, but it has all ...@ All Aboard -<br /><br />coal may be cheap, but it has all kinds of trace contaminants, including some radioactive material. Hansen Cement in Cupertino was forced to switch to natural gas when it was discovered it was emitting too much mercury.<br /><br />Actually, only a small fraction of the heavy metals contained in the fuel became airborne. Most of them ended up in the ash, which was presumably carted off somewhere. The location of <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/12/coal-ash-spills-too-dange_n_214739.html" rel="nofollow">coal ash ponds</a> has been declared a national secret because of concerns regarding environmental terrorism following the <a href="http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/the-tennessee-coal-ash-spill-in-pictures/" rel="nofollow">spill in Tennessee</a>. At the same time, the coal lobby is also marketing the stuff as a <a href="http://www.chiefengineer.org/content/content_display.cfm/seqnumber_content/3724.htm" rel="nofollow">green material</a>. I'm not making this up.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-59737775094535335922009-11-25T15:02:34.756-08:002009-11-25T15:02:34.756-08:00The airline/hsr threshold has been increased to 50...The airline/hsr threshold has been increased to 500 miles just because experience has proved it valid.<br />Paris-Marseille has a 186mph speed limit and it still beats Ryanair, the cheapest low-cost airline in the world. The TGV is more expensive than Ryanair but most people prefer to pay a few more euros and relax.<br />With 255mph becoming the standard commercial speed, the 500-mile limit may even seem too modest.<br /><br />By the way, I heard an interview of an Emirates' executive who said that next generation Airbus and Boeing will be able to do Dubai-SFO (but not LAX) non-stop. As Dubai is on the way to becoming one of the world's biggest hubs, it is bound to increase SFO's position as an international hub, making it the Paris CDG of California. That would strengthen the case for an HSR terminal at the airport.Andre Perettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66868957254348125262009-11-25T14:59:05.295-08:002009-11-25T14:59:05.295-08:00@ Peter, All Aboard -
it would be possible to use...@ Peter, All Aboard -<br /><br />it would be possible to use treated waste water rather than fresh water as the ambient heat sink for caloric power plants. The primary energy source is irrelevant in this context.<br /><br />Another strategy is to use brackish or salt water to wick off the excess heat, but in that case highly corrosion-resistant metals must be used for the heat exchanger between the closed coolant circuit and the open one. This is how marine diesel engines are cooled.<br /><br />Normally, the design doesn't allow the salt water to boil because that would reduce the thermodynamic efficiency of the electricity generation process. There's also the issue of salt buildup on the heat exchange surfaces, this acts as a thermal insulator and has to be washed off periodically. However, if there's the additional objective of producing a non-trivial amount of fresh water by condensing the steam via a second heat exchanger, it might still be worth it.<br /><br />Btw, <i>concentrated</i> photovoltaics and solar thermal power plants usually involve a coolant water cycle as well. Since the primary energy is free in these cases and washing can happen at night, co-generation of fresh water is especially attractive.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79937989718131773812009-11-25T14:01:38.520-08:002009-11-25T14:01:38.520-08:00I didn't know it, but I'm not surprised by...I didn't know it, but I'm not surprised by it.<br /><br />Apparently, the entire country's energy needs could be met by photovoltaic systems covering a total area the size of Connecticut. That does not mean it would all need to be one big solar plant, of course.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19792442146866388282009-11-25T13:55:12.195-08:002009-11-25T13:55:12.195-08:00yes I knew that, but most people don't know i...yes I knew that, but most people don't know it. thats part of the prob. so much fear and misinformation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80954824418698635862009-11-25T13:53:24.811-08:002009-11-25T13:53:24.811-08:00I wasn't able to find the exact numbers, but W...I wasn't able to find the exact numbers, but Wikipedia stated that cooling of power plants is the single largest use of water in the U.S.<br /><br />Compare that to photovoltaic and wind turbine systems, which use no water, and you can see that we could save a lot of water.<br /><br />Interestingly, did you guys know that you get a greater exposure to radioactivity from around coal powerplants than nuclear ones? That's assuming there's no catastropic meltdown, of course.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21161154937793965822009-11-25T13:35:11.905-08:002009-11-25T13:35:11.905-08:00peter, nuclear power doens't need any more wa...peter, nuclear power doens't need any more water that coal power. they both use he same amount of water to generate steam. YOu need only convert existing coal plants to nuclear. I spoke with an engineer from lawrence livermore once, asking this same question and the idea that nuke plants have to have some special source of water is false.<br /><br />You can put a nuclear plant anywhere you have a coal plant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com