tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post6115124032336649558..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Taking the Coast RouteRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71214799477766863322008-09-01T17:48:00.000-07:002008-09-01T17:48:00.000-07:00eric: yes, I addressed that issue.rafael: faster t...eric: yes, I addressed that issue.<BR/><BR/>rafael: faster trains mean longer routes are viable, and shorter routes can induce more demand. There is plenty of interest in increasing top (and more importantly, average) speed worldwide, and the Chinese just announced intention to go to 235mph in a few years. I shall watch "Speed" and see what Jeremy Clarkson says.njhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15278712220761294549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-82056874624276827152008-09-01T05:46:00.000-07:002008-09-01T05:46:00.000-07:00@njh -you're completely missing the point. HSR isn...@njh -<BR/><BR/>you're completely missing the point. HSR isn't about going as fast as technically possible, it's about going as fast as economically sensible. SNCF had to replace the overhead catenary after its latest speed record run, at a cost of around EUR 30 million. It was a publicity stunt and, not at all relevant to regular service.<BR/><BR/>The general consensus is that traditional steel wheels technology can be scaled up to around 250mph, beyond that the cost/benefit ratio goes out of the window. Still, that's plenty fast enough, especially now that uninterrupted broadband internet access is feasible (ok, still mostly via satellite but pure terrestrial won't be far behind).<BR/><BR/>Maglev can go even faster but as Jeremy "Car Nut" Clarkson's TV series "<A HREF="http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=jermey+clarkson+speed&sitesearch=&aq=f#" REL="nofollow">Speed</A>" articulated so well, our demand for extreme speed is actually declining.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-31579300601281021012008-08-31T22:05:00.001-07:002008-08-31T22:05:00.001-07:00A steel wheel on rail train can go just as fast as...A steel wheel on rail train can go just as fast as a maglev and their limits on top speed are close to the same (at sea level). This is because there is a lot of air resistance at sea level, something planes avoid by flying high. The way around this is to encapsulate the entire track and remove the air, but at huge costs. So right now, off the shelf HSR is a far better investment than maglev, which is a whole lot cheaper too and is capable of being integrated on to existing right of way at slower speeds (with the addition of catenary).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-62188501628675803072008-08-31T22:05:00.000-07:002008-08-31T22:05:00.000-07:00Prop 1 is going to win ..60-65 percent...Derail/no...Prop 1 is going to win ..60-65 percent...Derail/northcoastfreedom/eastbay..Your are not going to like the daybreak on 11-5-08Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17983071120909787962008-08-31T21:49:00.000-07:002008-08-31T21:49:00.000-07:00Haha, a 400 MPH train. Bring it on.Haha, a 400 MPH train. Bring it on.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-72546340877385144702008-08-31T21:33:00.000-07:002008-08-31T21:33:00.000-07:00Here's an analysis of the theoretical limits to hi...Here's an analysis of the theoretical limits to high speed rail (I've put this on my blog too). Corrections and thoughts welcome:<BR/><BR/>As high speed rail takes over from short hop air travel there will be demand for increased performance. MagLev technology may be useful for this, but how fast can steel wheels on steel rails go?<BR/><BR/>The TGV has been taken up to almost 580km/hour. The AGV will almost certainly be able to go faster. This is the same as the top maglev speed (I wonder if this means that power output is the limiting factor?).<BR/><BR/>There is no technical reason why railed vehicles can't go faster than planes (For example, the land speed record is 10000km/hour by a railed rocket sled, and the highest speeds measured have all been in evacuated guideways on magnetic levitation).<BR/><BR/>The main requirements are:<BR/><BR/>a) The ROW is suitably straight . At 27000km/hour the tangential acceleration from the earth's curvature alone is sufficient to lift the train off the track. Far below that tilting trains become necessary for passenger comfort on corners. Spain's Talgo passive, damped tilt trains already demonstrate a practical cornering at high speed on sharp corners. You can scale tilt and speed quadratically - quadruple the radius and you can double the speed for a given tilt, but adhesion improves dramatically with superelevation, allowing passive tilt trains to operate on cant excess and dramatically increase their top speed.<BR/><BR/>b) Sufficient power. The short contact time of pantographs allows a maximum current of about 2000A, which means that a 12MW train needs at least 6kV to operate. In practice a lower current (say 500A) and higher voltage is beneficial to reduce erosion and transmission losses. The practical voltage of a conventional pantograph is probably about 100kV (beyond which the diameter of the conductor to minimise dielectric breakdown becomes an issue), allowing a maximum power output of say 50MW (roughly the forwards power output of a 747). Planes on the other hand are fundamentally limited by something akin to the rocket equation - as their speed increases the fuel increases dramatically and it gets hard to carry enough without fundamental improvements to aerodynamics or energy storage. Planes can go higher to reduce some drag, but doing so increases the energy cost of climbing, which (discounting incredible improvements in energy storage) is lost on landing.<BR/><BR/>c) Aerodynamics. Even at just 350km/hour great care is taken to minimise drag and provide good adhesion and prevent ballast damage. This can be solved with evacuated tubes, which given the tunneling efforts in Europe, may be practical today (once you can build a tunnel, it is easy to line it and evacuate it - the difference in structural loading is negligible. The Large Hardon Collider is an example of such a design). Any improvement in plane aerodynamics can be transferred to trains, and without problems of induced drag and weight tradeoff. Ground effect may become useful for further improvements.<BR/><BR/>d) Braking. The current state of the art is inductive eddy braking, which works by turning the rail into a shorted motor. The rail heats up from this. Consider a 1000tonne 600km/hour (166m/s) train slowing at 0.3g in an emergency (brakes are never used in normal operation, much better to use regenerative braking). This generates an instantaneous power of<BR/><BR/>dE/dt = 1/2 m v*dv/dt = mva = 1000t * 166m/s * 0.3m/ss = 0.5GW<BR/><BR/>this sounds a lot, but consider that it is dissipating into 100kg/m rails at 166m/s. That means that the energy per metre of rail heats the rail by 0.5GW / ((166m/s * 100kg/m) * (0.45 J/g K)) = 67K ( = 67C)<BR/><BR/>e) Travelling waves in the catenary. A significant issue for high speed travel is the fact that as the pantograph pushes against the wire it lifts it slightly. As long as the wave generated moves away from the pantograph faster than the train is moving the wire doesn't move much. But just like a shockwave in the air, once the transverse wave is travelling at the same speed the wire will lift up until something gives (the wire snaps for example, or the train loses power and slows down). The speed of the traverse wave is proportional to the mass, tension, and stiffness of the wire, which is in turn proportional to the young's modulus and the bending area (second moment). We can thus increase the maximum operating speed of the wire by increasing the diameter, or the wire tension. These give a limit of about 700km/hour with copper clad steel. Another strategy is use a stiffer material such as glass fiber, or perhaps in the near future, carbon nanotubes (which can also be superconducting). Carbon nanotubes have 4 times the stiffness of steel and 7 times less dense too, allowing for perhaps 20 times the maximum velocity. Another intriguing idea, which I haven't confirmed with a suitable engineer, is to realise that just like with air, the problem only occurs very near the speed of wave propagation. Once you are traveling faster than the wave, you leave the bump behind. Unlike in air, we can change the speed of wave quite easily in the overhead wire simply by changing the tension. Thus, a train might accelerate to 600km/hour on low speed catenary, then cross onto 'high speed wire' tensioned to a speed of say 500 km/hour allowing it to accelerate to 1000km/hour. The pantograph might be retracted in the case that the train is about to drop below 500km/hour.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that given sufficient demand existing HSR routes can be brought up to 400mph average, which is about the same speed as a plane over the LA SF route. At that point it is basically game over for intracontinental and especially short haul planes.njhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15278712220761294549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33322424314390707172008-08-31T21:01:00.000-07:002008-08-31T21:01:00.000-07:00anyone speaking of sprawl in the central valley as...anyone speaking of sprawl in the central valley as a conditional future state of existence has never driven down 99 (and, i suspect, is crying crocodile tears about the valley from a safe distance on the coast). several decades late on that one, the sprawl's already there, driven by cheap oil, anti-density urban planning, and the ubiquity of automobiles.<BR/><BR/>what would change that pattern would be a way of getting out of the valley other than driving, as the current rail network does not connect fresno to LA save by way of the bay area [!!!], and the only airport is way up in sacramento.<BR/><BR/>build a dedicated, high speed spine connecting the downtowns of existing (sprawled out) cities, and then every city can focus on working out adequate feeder systems into that spine. for the sprawled out, polluted, endemically underemployed central valley, this thing will be an absolute godsend.<BR/><BR/>one other advantage of this thing is that it reverses the 19th century mistake of letting private robber barons build critical public infrastructure. if our rail system had been built and maintained like we did and do our highway systems, this country would have turned out rather differently. never too late to stop digging ourselves into a hole.無名 - wu minghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01078479850722724885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26968579156843388052008-08-31T19:12:00.000-07:002008-08-31T19:12:00.000-07:00My mistake, people are actually leaving California...My mistake, people are actually leaving California to OTHER states. Corrected! I guess it's all illegals then who are allergic to trains.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15590991515173883932008-08-31T18:35:00.000-07:002008-08-31T18:35:00.000-07:00Sprawl is going to happen no matter what. Californ...Sprawl is going to happen no matter what. California's population is growing rapidly. People are coming from other states, other countries, and vaginas (ah, the miracle of birth). You need places to put these new people.<BR/><BR/>Originally, towns sprung up around rail stations. It was the automobile that allowed people to roam and move to the suburbs. <BR/><BR/>So again, I don't know how HSR creates more sprawl than cars, electric or otherwise.<BR/><BR/>It seems like giving people the choice of living in high or medium density housing near transit is a good option.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70661598220403996232008-08-31T18:02:00.000-07:002008-08-31T18:02:00.000-07:00It is amazing that people opposing HSR claim that ...It is amazing that people opposing HSR claim that it will not have anyone riding it, but also generate urban sprawl. If you have a significant amount of people using this to commute to work, how is it lacking in ridership? It's almost like the Yogism: "No one goes to that restaurant anymore; it's too crowded!"<BR/><BR/>This is people opposing it for other reasons, or just being afraid of anything new.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621524688754424783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-53626172966606755042008-08-31T17:38:00.000-07:002008-08-31T17:38:00.000-07:00And in the short term, that's what people will do....And in the short term, that's what people will do. However, what I was getting at, if the "spine" is successful, and I think it will be, the system will be expanded to San Diego, Sacramento, etc. <BR/><BR/>It might even spur the development of high speed rail lines in other states. It might even spur a high speed rail line through the Altamont Corridor after all. <BR/><BR/>But before all that happens, the backbone has to be built.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73029876378644377692008-08-31T17:12:00.000-07:002008-08-31T17:12:00.000-07:00spokker's got the right idea in responding to anon...spokker's got the right idea in responding to anon's latest nonsense. HSR is a <B>spine</B>. It will connect to and enhance existing rail infrastructure. If you want to go from San Diego to Oakland you take the Surfliner to Anaheim, HSR to San José, and the Capitols to Oakland. Total travel time would be around 5-6 hours, faster than driving and with more amenities and comforts than flying.<BR/><BR/>Same for SD to Sac - Surfliner to Anaheim, HSR to Merced, San Joaquins to Sac.<BR/><BR/>HSR is a rising tide that lifts all passenger rail boats.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73902094051303222872008-08-31T17:08:00.000-07:002008-08-31T17:08:00.000-07:00david, your claims don't hold water. *of course* H...david, your claims don't hold water. *of course* HSR is advanced rail technology. That's the point. And how can that be seen as a bad thing? HSR systems are very successful around the world, as this site has repeatedly demonstrated. They are all profitable "above the rail" - i.e. they have more than 100% farebox recovery. As I have consistently argued, HSR does not alone produce sprawl, and instead promotes sustainable urban development in existing city centers.<BR/><BR/>The notion that HSR isn't high on the state's transportation needs is belied by the airline crisis, which you seem to have missed. <BR/><BR/>As to security, we can look at Europe for solutions. Europe has faced terrorism for much longer than we have, and their infrastructure has been attacked much more often than ours. The March 2004 Atocha bombings in Madrid occurred near the hub of the Spanish HSR system (but not on or within the AVE system), yet Spain's HSR functions effectively today even with added security procedures in place.<BR/><BR/>Even if TSA-style security theater measures are put in place for our HSR it is not likely that the delays will be as long as at airports. The reason is you're dealing with fewer passengers all headed for a single point, instead of a huge crush of people going to numerous different gates.<BR/><BR/>Of course, we can look to the Acela to see how this works - they have had added security measures in place since September 2001 (especially important because the Acela connects the two cities hit by the terrorist attack on 9/11) and it has not caused problems for travelers and hasn't hurt the Acela, which continues to set ridership records and has just under half the market on the Northeast Corridor.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-12423366837148699942008-08-31T16:20:00.000-07:002008-08-31T16:20:00.000-07:00"You obviously know nothing about land development..."You obviously know nothing about land development."<BR/><BR/>Enlighten me.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17963768981128493492008-08-31T16:19:00.000-07:002008-08-31T16:19:00.000-07:00"But I want to go to Oakland and Sacramento and Sa..."But I want to go to Oakland and Sacramento and San Diego."<BR/><BR/>San Diego is part of the CAHSR system. Sacramento is as well. Altamont pass isn't precluded from being upgraded just because CAHSR exists. I would like to see a high speed connection from Oakland to Sacramento through Altamont.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-78156314313245037882008-08-31T16:17:00.000-07:002008-08-31T16:17:00.000-07:00David,WOW!! I bet you are a person who thinks ene...David,<BR/><BR/>WOW!! I bet you are a person who thinks energy efficient cars like the Prius is cutting huge amounts of emissions? But in reality, it creates way more by manufacturing the batteries for them. You have your head stuck in the sand and thank god you are not in charge of the future of this country. Backward thinking like yours is pathetic. <BR/><BR/>HSR is a far better alternative than building more freeways lanes and airports!! We can't keep waiting for some technology that "might have some promise", as you state, before acting. Besides, how much money do you think goes into R&D of new technology? Billions. HSR is here and now with little to no R&D because other countries have done tons already. Again, wake up!<BR/><BR/>Oh, and by the way, Japan does have mountain ranges that HSR goes through/under/around with no problems (i.e. tunneling, bridges, areal tramways). Do some more research. <BR/><BR/>This rail project is needed for our future so we are not to be continually passed by the rest of the world. Our country/state is falling too far behind because of backward thinking which only leads to too much talk and no forward progress to show for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70024350742139412972008-08-31T16:10:00.000-07:002008-08-31T16:10:00.000-07:00@spokkerwrites:"I'm not sure how high speed rail w...@spokker<BR/><BR/>writes:<BR/><BR/><I>"I'm not sure how high speed rail would induce sprawl any more than a bunch of electric cars buzzing around would.</I><BR/><BR/>You obviously know nothing about land development.<BR/><BR/>But I want to go to Oakland and Sacramento and San Diego.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73076046026012621922008-08-31T15:21:00.000-07:002008-08-31T15:21:00.000-07:00"The planned route to San Diego is nothing more th..."The planned route to San Diego is nothing more than a round about elongated trip, that only land speculators and developers would want?"<BR/><BR/>It would still only take 1 hour from LA to San Diego, faster than current rail or driving.<BR/><BR/>The inland route was chosen because the coast route could not support a high speed rail line. NIMBYs would oppose catenary wires on the beach and there isn't really enough room to build new tracks there. <BR/><BR/>What's wrong with developing land? I keep seeing people talk about it like it's some evil in the world. Land should be developed around train stations with access to a variety of transit connections.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how high speed rail would induce sprawl any more than a bunch of electric cars buzzing around would.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70501910339142691222008-08-31T15:17:00.000-07:002008-08-31T15:17:00.000-07:00"If the tracks don't take travelers to where they ..."If the tracks don't take travelers to where they want to go, they won't be used."<BR/><BR/>The tracks are going to San Francisco and Los Angeles and I heard no one goes there.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-5320753655312113632008-08-31T14:52:00.000-07:002008-08-31T14:52:00.000-07:00I am 15, this is my future. Think about it.I am 15, this is my future. Think about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-67324084519479742222008-08-31T14:18:00.000-07:002008-08-31T14:18:00.000-07:00David...Ok so for 40 billion dollars what would yo...David...Ok so for 40 billion dollars what would you do ??? and no I am not going to buy your book.<BR/>So do you guys have the anti-gravity cars ready yet?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51705604815314197972008-08-31T13:43:00.000-07:002008-08-31T13:43:00.000-07:00Anno..YOU are going to vote No ..The bond issue is...Anno..YOU are going to vote No ..The bond issue is well ahead in the polls ..and no its not going to "soundly lose" in San Diego. The people in San Diego also want HSR. About the only county it might loose in are the far north ones..and voter wise there very small in numbers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-65992034976696756172008-08-31T13:33:00.000-07:002008-08-31T13:33:00.000-07:00The Penta thing is irrelevant. It looks like a ho...The Penta thing is irrelevant. It looks like a hobbyist or student pulled it together. <BR/><BR/>I'd give it a:<BR/>C+ for presentation<BR/>B- for thought effort<BR/>D for relevancyBrandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-1256567336142884542008-08-31T13:05:00.000-07:002008-08-31T13:05:00.000-07:00@ Rafael or others:I just ran across this presenta...@ Rafael or others:<BR/><BR/>I just ran across this presentation:<BR/><BR/>http://www.pentapublishing.com/online.html<BR/><BR/>It is a power point presentation and I wonder what you would have to say about what would seem to me to be how the project should have been designed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68845988845436031692008-08-31T12:58:00.000-07:002008-08-31T12:58:00.000-07:00Gee, how does someone respond to something like th...Gee, how does someone respond to something like that? If you have really been reading my posts you would have the answers you seek. And, I ask you in return, why do you post as an anon if you've really been coming to this site?<BR/><BR/>I am not going to respond to your question and instead I'll suggest you do some more research about the project and pay attention to the benefits. I am not going to turn your question into a discussion about San Diego... the project is much bigger and important and not shuttled to another time because of parachioal thinking or hyper sensativities because it's not in the first phase.Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.com