tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post6963343422599901635..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Frivolous Lawsuits, Part 2Robert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38763509218371717582009-08-16T11:18:54.650-07:002009-08-16T11:18:54.650-07:00That makes Alstom a US based manufacturer doesn...<i>That makes Alstom a US based manufacturer doesn't it?</i><br /><br />No, actually it doesn't. The same way that Honda, Toyota, and BMWs US plants don't make them "US-Based".<br /><br />You seem to be looking for things to argue with me about, but I've repeatedly said that the trains would be produced in the US, and you still missed the point of my posts which was to determine rolling stock design. If you want to argue about the legal semantics of the international corporate seat problem of publicly held organizations, quite frankly I don't care. Go nuts.AndyDuncannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70641468355542753762009-08-15T20:10:45.012-07:002009-08-15T20:10:45.012-07:00Standard Pacific already provided diesel-based pas...<i><b>Standard Pacific</b> already provided diesel-based passenger rail service into San Francisco?</i><br /><br />What the hell is Standard Pacific? Never heard of them!Reality Checknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45060501282970660872009-08-14T19:56:50.632-07:002009-08-14T19:56:50.632-07:00"But coming to the conclusion that there are ...<em>"But coming to the conclusion that there are people working here in US who have the skills to build cars for California's project isn't any fun is it?"<br /><br />I have no idea where in my comments you think I said anything related to that</em>.<br /><br />From this: "My point was that there's no current HSR rolling stock designer and manufacturer in the US." <br /><br />and <br /><br />"that there are no US-based companies with off-the-shelf HSR systems"<br /><br />There most certainly are. <br /><br />You think AGV is the closest fit for California's specifications. AGVs are made by Alstom. Alstom builds lighgwieght EMUs in many countries including at their plant in Hornell NY which is in the US. That makes Alstom a US based manufacturer doesn't it? <br /><br />Velaros are made by Siemens. I'm not going to search for where Siemens builds and rebuilds railroad cars in the US. They do. And I'm not going to go rooting around for who makes Shinkansen. Kawasaki a Japanese company builds lightweight EMUS in Yonkers NY. <br /><br />The French Germans and Japanese are the main vendors of HSR systems. They all have a presence in the US today. <br /><br />When Alstom is finished building R160s they can retool a bit and start building AGVs that meet the specs for California. And when they are done doing that they can retool for new cars for the DC Metro. By then the NEC is going to need a replacement for Acela.... <br /><br />Or when Kawasaki is finished with their part of the R160 contract they can retool a bit and start building cars that meet the specs for California HSR. <br /><br />Or Siemens in their plant(s) that are already building railroad cars in the US. <br /><br /><em>If you want to take that as an anti-american rant, I don't know how I'm going to stop you</em><br /><br />Mine was a geography lesson. There's lots and lots of US east of the Sierra. In some of those places they are manufacturing railroad cars that could be put on a railroad track in California, as soon as someone manages to string some of that scary catenary technology that's been around for over 100 years, and run. Some of them even have cab signaling and positive train control. <br /><br /><em>if you read my comments you'll note that I mentioned several Defense and aerospace contractors based in CA that I expect to bid on the work</em><br /><br />And how well has that worked out in the past?<br /><br /><em>As an engineer, in California, quite frankly I think we have more than enough talent to do it</em><br /><br />Talent doesn't count in this race. Experience and performance does. I doubt there's anyone in California qualified to bid on the contract much less execute it, unless Alstom decided to give all of their employees a California vacation. There are many companies, with operations in the US, who are.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19848734570669970612009-08-14T12:32:00.148-07:002009-08-14T12:32:00.148-07:00Just one totally pedantic note about the Almanac a...Just one totally pedantic note about the Almanac <a href="http://www.almanacnews.com/story.php?story_id=8421" rel="nofollow">article</a>: if you remember your biblical references, you'll also know that <b> Goliath lost. </b> Oops.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-53517867331199446732009-08-14T11:46:37.190-07:002009-08-14T11:46:37.190-07:00@adirondac and in case you don't want to scrol...@adirondac and in case you don't want to scroll all the way up there to read my comment, here it is:<br /><br /><i>Speaking of trains, have any of the manufacturers announced trains that can run revenue service at 360kph? From what I can find it seems like only the AGV is listed as being capable of running at that speed. The Velaros are close, I'm guessing they could be improved, the Japanese don't seem to have anything on the radar since the Fastech 360 didn't work out. I realize we've got a while before trainset procurement, just curious if there's something I missed.</i><br /><br />Man, I'm positively RAILING against those ignorant americans, aren't I?AndyDuncannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-4808661035240454272009-08-14T11:41:16.873-07:002009-08-14T11:41:16.873-07:00"But coming to the conclusion that there are ..."But coming to the conclusion that there are people working here in US who have the skills to build cars for California's project isn't any fun is it?"<br /><br />I have no idea where in my comments you think I said anything related to that. In fact, if you read my comments you'll note that I mentioned several Defense and aerospace contractors based in CA that I expect to bid on the work, and I've repeatedly said that I expect any trainsets to be constructed in California, regardless of where the designs come from.<br /><br />All I did was state the obvious: that there are no US-based companies with off-the-shelf HSR systems, the type the authority has said they want to purchase. In fact, if you read my comments again you'll note that I was asking if ANYONE even had a train that would meet the requirements the authority has set forward. That's not me saying we couldn't do it, or that somehow the french/german/japanese/canadians/italians/spanish somehow have better engineering skills, it's just me saying that we haven't put those engineering skills towards making HSR trainsets. I don't understand how you're taking that as me being anti-california/US engineering. <br /><br />As an engineer, in California, quite frankly I think we have more than enough talent to do it, we just haven't, and there's no getting around the fact that they want rolling stock in five years and as far as I can tell we don't have an US manufacturers ready to provide it.<br /><br /><i>So?</i><br /><br />So I was trying to figure out which of the available train designs we might end up getting and I asked anyone if, other than the AGV, were there any other designs announced or available that would meet the specs. If you want to take that as an anti-american rant, I don't know how I'm going to stop you.AndyDuncannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80477925437454137002009-08-14T00:37:02.395-07:002009-08-14T00:37:02.395-07:00The central valley - ( merced ) would be a great p...The central valley - ( merced ) would be a great place to set up and assembly plant for hsr cars, to be converted to the maintenance facility for said cars after construction. and able to revive rail car construction as needed. Much needed good paying jobs for the area, a central location, available space etc. seems obvious and logical. hello is this thing on?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-60856533837400762042009-08-13T20:55:36.145-07:002009-08-13T20:55:36.145-07:00My point was that there's no current HSR rolli...<em>My point was that there's no current HSR rolling stock designer and manufacturer in the US. Bombardier is the only one in NA</em> <br /><br />So? Very little is made by vertically integrated manufacturers anymore. High speed rail cars for California will have parts from all over the world. Designed by people all over the world. Very probably assembled into cars in the US. <br /><br />HSR manufacturers have plants in the US today, ones producing railroad cars. Plants capable of producing whatever it is that California specifies for HSR. <br /><br />For instance the order for the R160 series of NYC subway cars was split between Alstom and Kawasaki. As I pointed out Kawasaki has a plant in exotic Yonkers NY. Alstom's plant is in far off Hornell NY. One of the notable differences between the cars is that Siemens motors sound different than the Alstom motors...parts from all over the world assembled in the US by manufacturers from all over the world. Some R143 and R160 cars are equipped with CBTC. There isn't a whole lot of difference between building a new car for the BMT and building a new car for California's high speed rail. <br /><br />But coming to the conclusion that there are people working here in US who have the skills to build cars for California's project isn't any fun is it?Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77021649199488268192009-08-13T19:48:21.267-07:002009-08-13T19:48:21.267-07:00Yeah, they had reversible seats on the V-sets in N...Yeah, they had reversible seats on the V-sets in New South Wales, and its a good feature for a trip of between two and three hours.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-32183899896517818492009-08-13T18:51:08.086-07:002009-08-13T18:51:08.086-07:00absolutely I agree. 2-3 is out of the question. am...<i>absolutely I agree. 2-3 is out of the question. americans love the facing seating with a table though.</i><br /><br />I'm an American and I hate it. Most Amtrak trains aren't like that, either. But it would be nice if seats could be rotated to form facing pairs like on Japanese shinkansen. That way you and your three friends could face each other, but you and your wife wouldn't have to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68992992067556163882009-08-13T17:48:33.713-07:002009-08-13T17:48:33.713-07:00I can't see GD/Raytheon/Lockheed/Northrop pass...<i>I can't see GD/Raytheon/Lockheed/Northrop passing up an opportunity to become the high speed rail integrator in the US.</i><br /><br />And I can't see anything coming out of them working well. San Franciscans should know what it's like to use rolling stock made by Boeing.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-47992541117832761642009-08-13T13:23:03.229-07:002009-08-13T13:23:03.229-07:00Definitely. Illinois will have more miles of HSR i...Definitely. Illinois will have more miles of HSR in operation, but the Great Lakes / Midwest states are just getting started on preliminary planning for the Express HSR trunks once the Midwest and Ohio Hubs have been rolled out.<br /><br />So IL is well ahead of CA for Emerging/Regional HSR, CA is well ahead of IL for Express HSR.<br /><br />Almost like Express HSR was a natural starting point when you have two major national metro areas over 300 miles apart by train, and Emerging/Regional HSR is a natural starting point when you have so many 1m+ metro areas within 300 miles of each other ranged out in all directions around the largest metro area in the region.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-324835597886267192009-08-13T11:32:20.963-07:002009-08-13T11:32:20.963-07:00@jim Is Illinois gaining on us?
Isn't that s...@jim <i>Is Illinois gaining on us?</i> <br /><br />Isn't that system a 110mph "high" speed rail system?AndyDuncannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-63836091672556515722009-08-13T11:23:44.072-07:002009-08-13T11:23:44.072-07:00Local Amtrak Station in Line for High Speed Rail ...Local Amtrak Station in Line for High Speed Rail 08/13/2009 07:22 (WMBD/WYZZ Peoria-Bloomington)<br />WMBD/WYZZ - NORMAL - The town's Amtrak station might soon be home to the fastest trend in transportation. U.S. Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) says the facility is on track to becoming a hub for high speed rail. It would be a huge win for Central Illinois in tersm of jobs and business.<br /><br />Is Illinois gaining on us?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41593534055100991972009-08-13T11:09:13.791-07:002009-08-13T11:09:13.791-07:00@andyduncan Personally I'm rooting for a 2+2 l...@andyduncan <i>Personally I'm rooting for a 2+2 layout whatever train is chosen simply because 3-across seating sucks for everyone involved, especially the person in the middle.</i><br /><br />absolutely I agree. 2-3 is out of the question. americans love the facing seating with a table though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-20442414846076760952009-08-13T10:57:17.895-07:002009-08-13T10:57:17.895-07:00@andyduncan I wouldn't be the least surprised...@andyduncan I wouldn't be the least surprised to see a large US-based defense/aerospace company pair up with Bombardier (or someone else) to put a bid in on a design/build/operate contract. I can't see GD/Raytheon/Lockheed/Northrop passing up an opportunity to become <b>the</b> high speed rail integrator in the US.andyduncannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-50379339223321967922009-08-13T10:50:46.244-07:002009-08-13T10:50:46.244-07:00@Adirondac ..... and the rest of the comments abou...@Adirondac <i>..... and the rest of the comments about the lack of US manufacturing capability.</i><br /><br />I never said the trains wouldn't be manufactured in the US, of course they would. As you point out, just like the european, japanese and canadian designed trains we're currently using on various rail systems all over the united states.<br /><br />My point was that there's no current HSR rolling stock designer and manufacturer in the US. Bombardier is the only one in NA, and as Rafael pointed out, they don't have an actual train yet that will meet the requirements.<br /><br />Another consideration is loading gauge and seating layout, the Shinkansen trains are wider than the European trains (Siemens has produced wider versions of their Velaro for both Russia and China).<br /><br />In addition, "coach" class on a Shinkansen is in a 2+3 layout with seats that are about the same width as a 737's (17.3 inches) but with generous seat pitch. The TGVs have wider seats (18.8 inches) in a 2+2 configuration in coach but with slightly reduced seat pitch (still better than most airlines, and about the same as United's "Economy Plus").<br /><br />You could run the Japanese trains in a 2+2 configuration like they do on their 1st class lines, but that would reduce the seating capacity.<br /><br />Personally I'm rooting for a 2+2 layout whatever train is chosen simply because 3-across seating sucks for everyone involved, especially the person in the middle.AndyDuncannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-48864231543382946612009-08-13T09:51:47.251-07:002009-08-13T09:51:47.251-07:00The 200 mpg claim is probably fantasy. If Toyota, ...The 200 mpg claim is probably fantasy. If Toyota, a far more competent company than GM, couldn't get their supposedly 65 mpg Prius to do more than 45-50 mpg in field conditions, then don't expect GM to make good on its claim. The Volt will probably end up getting around 125 mpg, which is what current electric cars already get.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25040261010048403692009-08-13T09:50:32.878-07:002009-08-13T09:50:32.878-07:00Off Topic (already discussed?):
From: http://tiny...Off Topic (already discussed?):<br /><br />From: http://tinyurl.com/nalbp3<br /><br />Korea Times - Business<br />on Cal HSR<br /><br />quote:<br />A Korean delegation has departed for California ahead of bidding for a $45 billion high-speed rail system.<br />........<br /><br />"The stakes are that high," Cho said. <br /><br />California wants a network of high-speed rail with trains operating at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour between San Francisco and Los Angeles in two-and-half hours.<br /><br />The California high-speed rail would include stopovers at other major California cities such as Sacramento, San Jose, Fresno, and San Diego.<br /><br />Connections with commercial airports, mass transit, and the highway network are also provided as part of the system. The system will deal with 102.4 million passengers and 340 trains in 2035, according to the CHSRA.<br /><br />The construction of the $45-billion project is expected to begin around 2012. An implementation plan, approved in 2005, estimates that it would take eight to 11 years to develop before the operation of an initial segment of the high-speed train.<br /><br />end quoteJameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17296808260419563238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-78487415077074056072009-08-13T09:43:47.807-07:002009-08-13T09:43:47.807-07:00Come on, there's not going to be any issue wit...Come on, there's not going to be any issue with using French equipment (if that's what we choose). Many US air carriers use Airbus planes assembled in France - United, US Airways, JetBlue, Virgin America, etc. - and I don't see people lining up and boycotting them (at least not because of the plans...maybe because of the service). The whole anti-France hysteria thing was just manufactured in the run-up to the Iraq War because France wasn't giving us 100% support in attacking Iraq. But in retrospect the vast majority of the American population now agrees that the French were correct in being cautious about initiating that war, though we'd never publicly admit it.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13162579446470292442009-08-13T08:40:29.878-07:002009-08-13T08:40:29.878-07:00I suspect strongly this will be a new base line fo...<i>I suspect strongly this will be a new base line for Cambridge to spew out ridership projections that seem ever more glorious. They will be using population projection projections for 2035, which will drive higher numbers using the train.</i><br /><br />@ anon, 5:42AM<br /><br />As a senior in college I took an urban planning economics course taught by a guy who had worked for Cambridge Systematics. Sure enough, he had worked on demand projections for the HSR project. Wonder if he had anything to do with this! Haha.N. Dienznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38420525940549131702009-08-13T05:42:06.202-07:002009-08-13T05:42:06.202-07:00Re: As for CHSRA now using projections for 2035, I...Re: As for CHSRA now using projections for 2035, I noticed that too. ... from Rafael and anon:<br /><br />I suspect strongly this will be a new base line for Cambridge to spew out ridership projections that seem ever more glorious. They will be using population projection projections for 2035, which will drive higher numbers using the train.<br /><br />Of course with inflation, if full build out stretches that far out, the 9 billion raised thus far will seem pretty puny. <br /><br />And then, if the present economics of our lovely state are not just an aberration, you can throw out of those population projections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15904453126325994732009-08-13T02:02:44.197-07:002009-08-13T02:02:44.197-07:00@ Adirondacker12800 -
Siemens and AnsaldoBreda al...@ Adirondacker12800 -<br /><br />Siemens and AnsaldoBreda already have assembly shops in California, Talgo just inked a deal to set one up in Wisconsin.<br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised if whoever gets the trainset order for California HSR will have to set up a loss-leader assembly plant in that state or at least in the US, if they have not done so already.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64717800497011798462009-08-13T01:17:07.596-07:002009-08-13T01:17:07.596-07:00I expect that all the major manufacturers (and som...<em> I expect that all the major manufacturers (and some others) are going to throw their hat in the ring to try to get a foothold in the US market. </em> <br />..... and the rest of the comments about the lack of US manufacturing capability. <br /><br /><br /><br />Some of the new non FRA compliant lightweight EMUs on the NYC subway system gets shipped all the way from distant <em>Yonkers</em>. I'm sure it takes hours and hours and hours for the new cars to get shipped from the factory to the yards in the far off Bronx. The ones destined for service in Brooklyn and Queens may take the greater part of day! <br /><br />Most of the major manufacturers have plants in the US. Those shiny new commuter cars and subway cars come from someplace. It's not Japan, Germany or France. The equipment and skills needed to manufacture new cars for the PATH system (or the NYC subway or Metra or Amtrak or... ) aren't so radically different from building HSR cars that they would need factories. <br /><br /><em>Otherwise, if the choice is purely technological it should be Alstom or Kawasaki</em>.<br /><br />Both have existing manufacturing facilities in the US. That build lightweight EMUs.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64824225189264945302009-08-13T01:08:49.038-07:002009-08-13T01:08:49.038-07:00anyway, who has the fastest trains.... say it wit...anyway, who has the fastest trains.... say it with me... the french.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com