tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post8193932863859779904..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Friday Open ThreadRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger106125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13913778520636671602009-10-19T14:32:23.253-07:002009-10-19T14:32:23.253-07:00Are there places along the peninsula corridor wher...<em>Are there places along the peninsula corridor where there is enough room to put sidings or even a full fifth track to allow Caltrain to run baby-bullet-type service on it's two tracks, leaving the HSR tracks for the HSR trains</em><br /><br />How many HSR trains an hour have to be running before that happens? How many Baby Bullets have to be running before Caltrain alters it's service pattern and starts running things that make five local stops and then express on the same pattern as an HSR "local" and can seamless integrate into the HSR schedule? <br /><br />Four tracks for 20-25 trains an hour in each direction is a bit of overkill as it is. I don't see them needing 5 tracks until cars are outlawed. Adjusting the schedule here and there or the service pattern or both is a lot cheaper than concrete ties, welded rail and catenary.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-62567851542268337402009-10-19T09:48:24.660-07:002009-10-19T09:48:24.660-07:00Well, the HSR "local" stopping pattern i...Well, the HSR "local" stopping pattern is a Caltrain "express" – it's all relative.<br /><br />Are there places along the peninsula corridor where there is enough room to put sidings or even a full fifth track to allow Caltrain to run baby-bullet-type service on it's two tracks, leaving the HSR tracks for the HSR trains, and are those places located such that they are in the areas needed? Barring that, could extra tracks at stations allow the same sort of leapfrogging?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66592778352942394842009-10-19T08:23:57.737-07:002009-10-19T08:23:57.737-07:00@ adirondacker12800 -
there seems to be some seri...@ adirondacker12800 -<br /><br />there seems to be some serious terminology confusion here. Let's me try and explain the terms used out on the west coast:<br /><br />Express, semi-express, local etc. refers to the number of intermediate stops a given train makes along the route.<br /><br />For example, a Caltrain local stops about 15 times between SF and SJ, a limited at around 10 and a baby bullet at around 7. The latter two are therefore "semi-express" service levels.<br /><br />An HSR local will stop at 2-3 locations in the peninsula (Millbrae, mid-peninsula and San Jose), a semi-express in San Jose only and an express not at all until it reaches LA.<br /><br />By contrast, "standard speed" currently refers to passengers trains with a top speed of 79mph. Post-electrification, it will mean 90mph. "High speed" implies more than that, e.g. 125mph in the SF peninsula and 220mph in the Central Valley.<br /><br />The high speed tracks in the SF peninsula are intended for trains that actually run at 125mph where curve radii permit. Ergo, assuming that Caltrain will purchase a fleet EMUs with a top speed of 90mph, it may be restricted to the standard speed tracks <i>except</i> when there is a gap in the HSR schedule that allows them to make a brief excursion onto the high speed tracks without impeding HSR traffic.<br /><br />Initially, there will be many such gaps while HSR operators ramp up ridership. After a few years, the number of gaps will start to come down, constraining Caltrain's ability to sustain its standard speed semi-express service levels.<br /><br />Since equipment needs to be in service for 20-40 years, it makes sense IMHO to re-evaluate the service concept of limiteds and baby bullets in the context of expanding HSR service. Caltrain has the option of running locals with equipment optimized for high acceleration and HiSpeed trains between SF and Gilroy, optimized for high speed. Passengers would have a limited number of stations at which to execute timed cross-platform transfers.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51182684143342678002009-10-18T15:50:16.412-07:002009-10-18T15:50:16.412-07:00The issue is that the CalTrain express services mi...The issue is that the CalTrain express services might not be able to keep pace (or even close) if equipment is chosen which emphasizes acceleration over speed. Granted, the express trains don't have to go all the way up to 125 to keep a decent schedule on the express tracks but 80 mph probably won't cut it. One option would be for CalTrain to use different equipment for the express trains than for the locals, though this adds the unnecessary complication of maintaining new fleets.<br /><br />Remember, CalTrain is planning to double the number of trains it runs in the near future. This means that the current model of express trains only overtaking locals at certain points might not work forever. CHSRA documents already show that the center tracks will be used by both HSR and CalTrain express services. The problem is choosing equipment that can maintain a decent speed on express runs while keeping acceleration on the local tracks. I would expect any train that does both very well to be prohibitively expensive.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-11814232340575659172009-10-18T15:32:57.626-07:002009-10-18T15:32:57.626-07:00I was referring to fast regional and long-distance...<em>I was referring to fast regional and long-distance EMU equipment.</em><br /><br />Like Metroliners. Or like Jersey Arrow 1's which used to run between New York City and Washington DC now and then. They don't anymore because they were retired years ago. Rumor has it, and it's all just rumor at this point, that the design speed for Jersey Arrow IVs will be 125. Makes sense since the design speed for the NJTransit bilevels and the ALP46a's is 125. ALP46s and bilevels already run in revenue service from New Haven to Washington DC. Not often but they do run occasionally. The appear in the schedule as Amtrak trains or Metro North trains. <br /><br /><em>For those, energy efficiency in cruise mode is a big factor.</em><br /><br />Combustion engines, whether internal or external combustion have particular places in their operating ranges that are more efficient than in other places in their operating ranges. Electric motors don't have that problem to a great degree. It's one of the reasons to use electric motors. <br /><br /><em>Subways have to stop-and-go all the time anyhow, so many designs for those still use plain old asynchronous motors.</em><br /><br />The MTA has it's faults but they can get out really sharp pencils and look at how much it costs to maintain things. It's the reason why the new cars have IGBT power converters and the motors run on three phase power. Some train systems even vary the frequency to better match the motor to the load. <br /><br /><em>It's not yet clear if Caltrain will retain its existing - and popular - baby bullet service. </em><br /><br />Why would they cancel it? Why wouldn't they add rush hour express service like commuter railroads all over the world.<br /><br /><em>It just doesn't stop as often.</em><br /><br />Yes I understand the concept. Sorta like the NJTransit express to Trenton. Or the NJTransit express to Gladstone. Or the Metro North Express to New Haven or the SEPTA express to Trenton or the MARC express to DC or Metra express to.... Something commuter agencies all over the world manage to do. Some of them on two and three track systems. Many of them with branch lines that have to be integrated into the trains on the mainline. Some of them with electric trains and diesel trains and branches and voltage and frequency changes and level boarding and low level platforms and .... unlike Caltrain which will have to manage an all electric service on a line without branches and have four tracks to do it on. <br /><br /><em>As long as HSR express trains cruising at 125mph are few and far between, allowing some number of relatively slow baby bullets to make brief excursions onto the HSR tracks should be manageable.</em> <br /><br />Why would the Baby Bullets be on the express tracks? Wouldn't the express trains be on the express tracks? If the 5:17 express to San Jose leaves San Francisco and doesn't stop until it gets to Sunnyvale there's no reason why it can't be on the express tracks until it passes through Mountain View. YMMV depending on where they put switches, the service patterns and whether or not the 5:15 HSR is express to LA or stops at SFO and Palo Alto... <br /><br /><em>The overhead catenaries on the Caltrain/UPRR tracks will be set up for 90mph, with the option of increasing that to 125mph at some point in the future.</em><br /><br />They would have to try really hard to do that. The antique catenary on the NEC can handle trains going 135, or ten miles an hour faster than what trains will be doing on the Peninsula. <br /><br /><em>The reason Caltrain locals don't need 125mph top speed is that the stations are so close together, often less than 2 miles. High acceleration/deceleration rates are more important</em><br /> <br />...but the trains on the express tracks won't be making many stops hence the "express" part.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-3334334434842430992009-10-18T14:41:07.319-07:002009-10-18T14:41:07.319-07:00Adirondacker:
It's 50 miles between San Jose ...Adirondacker:<br /><br /><i>It's 50 miles between San Jose and San Francisco. Unless they go to all local service all the time between San Jose and San Francisco they'll have something that can keep up with HSR trains between San Jose and San Francisco.</i><br /><br />Neither the express nor the local tracks are expected to be at capacity. This means that Caltrain expresses can briefly go on the express tracks to overtake slower trains. All it takes is some scheduling. It doesn't even have to be good scheduling - Amtrak and NJT already do it on the NEC.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-31629387962938307902009-10-18T13:00:01.565-07:002009-10-18T13:00:01.565-07:00i think that the state regional systems (ccjpa/san...i think that the state regional systems (ccjpa/san joaquin/surfliner) and the hsr core system should be under one operator to best have a cooridinated complete state system including the feeder thruway buses.<br />Schedules would then be best designed to route passengers via the best alternative for the trip.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2994406228310971802009-10-18T12:31:35.119-07:002009-10-18T12:31:35.119-07:00some one need to put UP out of their (our) misery ...some one need to put UP out of their (our) misery once and for all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14207043841347596122009-10-18T12:25:30.700-07:002009-10-18T12:25:30.700-07:00Also meant to discuss the Gilroy Caltrain service....Also meant to discuss the Gilroy Caltrain service. Earlier this year <a href="http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/256615-ending-caltrain-service-to-south-county-no-longer-an-option" rel="nofollow">Caltrain floated the notion of cutting that service entirely</a> to save money as it faced a severe budget crisis. It didn't happen, but there is widespread agreement that the service is vulnerable as Caltrain continues to face financial challenges.<br /><br />You have to also keep in mind that Gilroy isn't the only stop: San Martin, Morgan Hill, and Blossom Hill all have stops as well on the Gilroy line. Neither the Coast Daylight nor HSR would be able to meet their needs.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-55104931741530380512009-10-18T12:22:14.019-07:002009-10-18T12:22:14.019-07:00Some updates on the Coast Daylight project, courte...Some updates on the Coast Daylight project, courtesy of friend and colleague Chris Flescher, can be found <a href="http://www.railpac.org/2009/10/07/coast-rail-coordinating-council-meeting-report-5/" rel="nofollow">at the RailPAC site</a>. Short story: UP is dragging their feet again. Even though there is state money available to buy and operate the trainsets to run the Daylight, tracks have to be upgraded, and UP isn't in a mood to play along, at least not yet. The 2012 date for starting service is not likely to be met.<br /><br />In terms of Monterey light rail, well, you'll all be hearing more about that from me in the next day or two.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21207850966952678112009-10-18T11:54:13.016-07:002009-10-18T11:54:13.016-07:00can they get get the trip from sjc to sfc to unde...can they get get the trip from sjc to sfc to under an hour using high speed locals? fast acceleration and braking? that would be a sucky ride though.<br /><br />or the other option would be staggered schedule - maybe thats a better choice,.<br /><br />with more frequent service - say 15 minute headway, they could alternate a skip stop sked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-8318553616029878102009-10-18T11:53:26.998-07:002009-10-18T11:53:26.998-07:00@ jim -
to clarify: I don't think adding a ne...@ jim -<br /><br />to clarify: I don't think adding a new service makes sense <i>during</i> the remodeling of the peninsula corridor. Once that's done, I see no reason why one Amtrak train a day (each way) would be a problem for PCJPB, unless the remodeling introduces steep gradients.<br /><br />So I'm suggesting the Coast Daylight start out as Emeryville-LAUS or SJ-LAUS and then gets modified to SF (4th & King) and LAUS at a later date. Just make sure the FRA-compatible diesel locomotive has all the necessary PTC gear and enough oomph to keep up with the Caltrain EMUs.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-72065983881843041432009-10-18T11:47:41.130-07:002009-10-18T11:47:41.130-07:00@ jim -
in case you haven't noticed, peninsul...@ jim -<br /><br />in case you haven't noticed, peninsula cities are already raising a ruckus.<br /><br />Caltrain would not drop baby bullet service lightly, precisely because it is so popular. Any alternative based on local + timed cross-platform transfer + HSR would have to offer most passengers faster line haul times at the same fares. That's not an easy target to shoot for, which is why Caltrain is keeping its options open by insisting on access to all four tracks.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-60466888635524083172009-10-18T11:40:41.063-07:002009-10-18T11:40:41.063-07:00I get from the buzz that many are hell bent on riv...I get from the buzz that many are hell bent on riving the daylight.<br /><br />Personally, as the one who works SF. just between us, its nice not having any trains and the drama that goes with having them. (my buses run like clockwork regardless of what is happening in the rest of the system)<br /><br />but, from a service standpoint, I would like to see real trains come back into the city. I take pride in my railroad job and in being a san franciscan and my customer base is overwhelming international and domestic tourism and I wish so much to have something better than these endless bus connections all over the state.<br /><br />I know rafael is against the daylight to sf. But we simply must have a train here and perhaps a revived daylight could use DMUs and be integrated into the caltrain Sked, so as not to be disruptive?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80252080877573938022009-10-18T11:35:12.816-07:002009-10-18T11:35:12.816-07:00caltrain could focus on a dumbarton service in pla...caltrain could focus on a dumbarton service in place of the gilroy service.<br />these local agencies,<br /><br />caltrain<br />ace<br />ccjpa<br /><br />need to get together and decide who gets what territory.<br /><br />i think ace should stick with what it does now and focus on up grades and more frequent service.<br /><br />ccjpa should focus on reno to salinas.<br /><br />and caltrain should do san jose san francisco and union city via dumbarton.<br /><br />there should be a multi mode transfer between ace/ccpa and caltrain in central eastbay location.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-5696668106272290262009-10-18T11:31:20.326-07:002009-10-18T11:31:20.326-07:00@Jim, renewed service from the bay to SLO would be...@Jim, renewed service from the bay to SLO would be nice. I think I must have taken one of the last trains from Monterey to SLO before they dropped that service.<br /><br />Upgrading it to 110mph would, of course, be even more welcome. Hopefully that line can get some cash to turn it into one of the "emerging" HSR corridors. 125mph trains would be plenty to get significant mode share along that route since you're basically only talking about getting from San Jose to SLO or LA to SLO. Longer than that and you could just backtrack, like LA-SJ-Monterey, or SJ-Burbank-Santa Barbara<br /><br />Even something like San Jose to Santa Barbara could be done in under 3 hours if they averaged 100mph.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-87411232615658668932009-10-18T11:28:53.671-07:002009-10-18T11:28:53.671-07:00you can't substitute hsr for baby bullet on th...you can't substitute hsr for baby bullet on the penninsula because hsr in only going to have two stops on the pen.<br /><br />currently residents of san jose, mountain view, palo alto, redwood sicty, hillsdale, san mateo, and millbae all enjoy some level of baby bullet service.<br /><br />To remove it would mean only millbrae and one other stop would get hsr instead.<br /><br />the residents will raise a ruckus you can count on that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-88519537437458797382009-10-18T11:26:23.184-07:002009-10-18T11:26:23.184-07:00Clem,
at 5:26p you took my comment out of context....Clem,<br />at 5:26p you took my comment out of context. You're a bad person. :)Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85158386528595032792009-10-18T11:24:08.386-07:002009-10-18T11:24:08.386-07:00@ jim, Peter -
yes, extending either Amtrak CC or...@ jim, Peter -<br /><br />yes, extending either Amtrak CC or ACE out to Salinas may make a lot of sense. TAMC is looking for 3-4 trains each way on weekdays.<br /><br />There's also planning a light rail line from Monterey to the metropolis of Castroville along the old railroad ROW. Passengers to and from the Bay Area are supposed to transfer there.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-44926395137790259352009-10-18T11:21:20.953-07:002009-10-18T11:21:20.953-07:00There is a goal of getting full coast service by e...There is a goal of getting full coast service by either running the daylight or bringing ccjpa and surfliner together probably at salina.<br /><br /><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gilroy,+CA&gl=us&ei=PlnbSv-GF46csgOj6dSxCQ&ved=0CBIQ8gEwAA&msa=0&ll=37.188767,-121.253357&spn=1.754795,3.479919&t=h&z=9&msid=106369591048698553426.000476397f1c0fe5ec370" rel="nofollow">map</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-89055318866218442352009-10-18T11:20:38.913-07:002009-10-18T11:20:38.913-07:00@ adirondacker12800 -
I was referring to fast reg...@ adirondacker12800 -<br /><br />I was referring to fast regional and long-distance EMU equipment. For those, energy efficiency in cruise mode is a big factor. Subways have to stop-and-go all the time anyhow, so many designs for those still use plain old asynchronous motors.<br /><br />It's not yet clear if Caltrain will retain its existing - and popular - baby bullet service. It's a complete misnomer since top speed is unchanged at 79mph. It just doesn't stop as often.<br /><br />As long as HSR express trains cruising at 125mph are few and far between, allowing some number of relatively slow baby bullets to make <i>brief</i> excursions onto the HSR tracks should be manageable. However, the lower weight and higher acceleration mean that the new non-compliant EMUs will support significantly higher line haul times for locals as well.<br /><br />The overhead catenaries on the Caltrain/UPRR tracks will be set up for 90mph, with the <i>option</i> of increasing that to 125mph at some point in the future. That's basically just a matter of increasing the mechanical tension on the wire. The reason Caltrain locals don't need 125mph top speed is that the stations are so close together, often less than 2 miles. High acceleration/deceleration rates are more important.<br /><br />Of course, if Caltrain does decide to maintain multiple service levels in addition to those offered by HSR, it's possible it will spec different motors for different trainsets.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-46065263230909043022009-10-18T11:09:33.894-07:002009-10-18T11:09:33.894-07:00@ Jim
Very true. You could even run it to Salinas...@ Jim<br /><br />Very true. You could even run it to Salinas and Monterey.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-4991527872454126142009-10-18T11:06:39.607-07:002009-10-18T11:06:39.607-07:00to gilroyto gilroyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39505012038751298502009-10-18T11:05:07.911-07:002009-10-18T11:05:07.911-07:00caltrain service can easily be replaced by capitol...caltrain service can easily be replaced by capitol corridor service and other planned coast service.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-53134777271795042762009-10-18T11:01:28.142-07:002009-10-18T11:01:28.142-07:00Modern EMU drive concepts rely on rare-earth perma...<em>Modern EMU drive concepts rely on rare-earth permanent magnet synchronous motors attached directly to the axles.</em><br /><br />...like the NYC subway?.... or any electrically driven train these days? <br /><br /><em>What Caltrain currently has in mind is high-acceleration regional rail EMUs that top out at around 90mph.</em><br /><br />They have something in mind that will use electricity instead of diesel. There's a difference between a number they pulled out of the air for the publicity brochure in 2006 - I suspect someone Googled "Metro North top speed" - and actual specifications for a contract they put out to bid in 2015. Same brochures say the catenary will be capable of 125. The antique catenary on the NEC can handle 135. <br /><br /><em>If Caltrain wants to run trains on the HSR tracks for an extended distance, it must have rolling stock that can keep up.</em><br /><br />It's 50 miles between San Jose and San Francisco. Unless they go to all local service all the time between San Jose and San Francisco they'll have something that can keep up with HSR trains between San Jose and San Francisco. <br /><br />It's 30 miles from San Jose to Gilroy. They are going to be using signals not telegraphs and written train orders. In other words they will be able to have more than one train on the track between San Jose and Gilroy. The parts of tracks that have speeds higher than whatever Caltrain will be capable of will be somewhat less than 30 miles. How fast will HSR be going through Tamien? Schedule it so Caltrain is at the platform which is masquerading as a passing siding - how fast does Caltrain then have to go so it gets between Tamien and Gilroy before the next HSR comes through. How many trains an hour have to be passing through or serving Gilroy before two tracks becomes a problem? 2030? 2045? Never? <br /><br /><em>It's very expensive to leave diesel equipment unused all day long, even if it's fully depreciated: it needs to be maintained, you need staff that can operate it and you need somewhere to park the equipment during the day - preferably not at SJ Diridon nor at 4th & King.</em><br /><br />Why would they use diesel equipment when they have electric equipment that can run as far south as Anaheim? All they have to do to serve stations south of San Jose is to extend a few trains south to Gilroy like they do now.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.com