tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post8269476167870746300..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: The Mid-Peninsula HSR StationRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80774045287968746052009-02-28T17:50:00.000-08:002009-02-28T17:50:00.000-08:00"CAHSR would do better to look at how the Acela ru..."CAHSR would do better to look at how the Acela runs through Connecticut and Rhode Island, for a start."<BR/><BR/>Through Rhode Island, it runs pretty reasonably. Through most of Connecticut -- not a model you want to follow. It's *slow*, with chicanes, grade crossings, drawbridges, constricted track spacing, etc.neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21869820545266710052009-02-28T17:06:00.000-08:002009-02-28T17:06:00.000-08:00"diesel-powered freight train"Given that the Penin..."diesel-powered freight train"<BR/><BR/>Given that the Peninsula line is a branch line, I think it would make more sense to electrify *all* the freight sidings and use simple electric freight locomotives, which are pretty cheap compared to dual-modes, and are very common in Europe. Probably only two are needed, maybe only one, to cover the entire Peninsula workings. Engines can be changed at San Jose. Union Pacific can shift its diesel engines elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>The price of one electric freight locomotive is small enough to be lost in the noise of the ROW expenses.neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-27491856719324517382009-02-25T20:10:00.000-08:002009-02-25T20:10:00.000-08:00A new subway car has a power of about 600 hp. A ne...A new subway car has a power of about 600 hp. A new locomotive has a power of about 8000 hp, and can pull a 12-car train. And unpowered cars are much cheaper than MUs.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-28544267691247517022009-02-25T18:16:00.000-08:002009-02-25T18:16:00.000-08:00Alright...On another note: how come an electric lo...Alright...<BR/><BR/>On another note: how come an electric locomotive costs $3 million? New subway cars cost $1.5 million each.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68526266789701457432009-02-25T15:43:00.000-08:002009-02-25T15:43:00.000-08:00Alon: there are no trains from Bay Head to Penn St...Alon: there are no trains from Bay Head to Penn Station. You change either at Long Branch (for the shuttle trains) or Newark (for the trains running through to Hoboken). Look closely at the timetable, all trains require changing at some point or another.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64643088970551984022009-02-25T15:23:00.000-08:002009-02-25T15:23:00.000-08:00Wait - how do trains get from Bay Head to Penn Sta...Wait - how do trains get from Bay Head to Penn Station, then? Do they all get routed to Hoboken?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-42848409410263106372009-02-24T21:04:00.000-08:002009-02-24T21:04:00.000-08:00Alon: NJT's dual-mode locomotives only exist in th...Alon: NJT's dual-mode locomotives only exist in the form of a requirements document. No such beast has actually been built, or even designed. And as I mentioned, they're supposed to cost $8 million each, versus $3 million for a typical electric, and will almost certainly be less powerful even in electric mode.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33104882696726704392009-02-24T14:01:00.000-08:002009-02-24T14:01:00.000-08:00Aaron-The Ralston bridge may be more to your likin...Aaron-<BR/><BR/>The Ralston bridge may be more to your liking - it is a deep angle, but they put a pedestrian bridge at street level as well (undoubtedly only cause they have a Caltrain station there, but it is interesting conceptually).<BR/><BR/>Here's a link (haven't played with tags in these comments so no promises that this will work): <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Carlos,+CA&sll=37.498993,-122.250377&sspn=0.003805,0.008433&ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=37.520546,-122.275972&panoid=tp6T2B1ITpSYIBvCvDs2FA&cbp=11,21.561782591910823,,0,5&ll=37.519946,-122.27662&spn=0.002127,0.00957&z=17&iwloc=addr" REL="nofollow">Ralston</A>timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-81987985707762301282009-02-24T10:44:00.000-08:002009-02-24T10:44:00.000-08:00@ Jim -I think you're being a tad unfair. Not ever...@ Jim -<BR/><BR/>I think you're being a tad unfair. Not everyone in Palo Alto and Menlo Park thinks alike, the ones who commented on this post may not be entirely representative. Palo Alto in particular has the second highest ridership on Caltrain after SF and, it's served by quite a few buses as well and, they do have quite a few bike paths and even a dedicated bike boulevard.<BR/><BR/>The purpose of this post was to spell out in more detail what hosting a secondary HSR station might mean for towns along the route, in terms of both opportunities for TOD and the risk of a sharp uptick in demand for both road and parking capacity. I picked the mid-peninsula primarily because it is the only place in the route where the siting decision was deferred to the project-level EIR/EIS, which is now in progress.<BR/><BR/>If nothing else, perhaps a few residents of these cities have seen this post and decided they ought to attend one of the planning meetings before they find themselves confronted with a fait accompli. I'm confident that once the vitriolic emotional response gives way to more rational and honest negotiation, peninsula residents and CHSRA will arrive at a solution that everyone can live with, both aesthetically and financially.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-58137093721537770092009-02-24T08:40:00.000-08:002009-02-24T08:40:00.000-08:00@BruceMcF:"Having mixed stopping patterns, where s...@BruceMcF:<BR/>"<I>Having mixed stopping patterns, where some services skip one and other services skip the other, introduces excessive complexity, especially given that many passengers will be occasional rather than daily riders.</I>"<BR/><BR/>That is a valid point. In effect, the choice is between a turn-up-and-go service (like subway), which stops everywhere (to prevent confusion), or a check-timetable-before-travel service (like flying), which has mixed stopping patterns (to increase speed).<BR/><BR/>Now, this isn't one of those either-or descisions, but a lot of people adopt one philosophy to the exclusion of the other.<BR/><BR/>I suspect most occasional users will check timetables before traveling, to avoid excess waiting at the station. (Unless you're running trains every 15 mins or better). This implies the varied stopping, higehr speed vaersion woudl be better.TomWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453251490705724225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-60516265750901036772009-02-24T08:35:00.000-08:002009-02-24T08:35:00.000-08:00Arcady, what about the dual-mode locomotives on th...Arcady, what about the dual-mode locomotives on the NJT?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-73919626855790041462009-02-23T22:06:00.000-08:002009-02-23T22:06:00.000-08:00To the very, very first anonymous: the LIRR and MN...To the very, very first anonymous: the LIRR and MNR use dual-mode diesel locomotives that can draw power from a third rail. There do not currently exist any dual-mode diesel/AC locomotives, nor did any ever make it past the prototype stage. There are a couple of railroads that are trying to buy such a beast, but each one is expected to cost three times more than a regular electric locomotive, and it's not clear whether they'll actually manage to make the thing light enough to be useful. Of course, you could just swap the diesel for an electric at San Jose, which is fine for long distance trains, less so for commuters. And come to think of it, real long distance trains will have a very hard to impossible time operating into Transbay, since they usually only have a locomotive on the front, and no cab car of any sort on the back.<BR/><BR/>And about the electrical clearances and freight access to the port: this has been studied repeatedly since the original 1992 study, and there's already a reasonable solution to problem, which involves a gauntlet track through each tunnel. It's good enough for running a couple of trains at night, and that's all the port is likely to need for the foreseeable future anyway.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-65819243618220889532009-02-23T18:36:00.000-08:002009-02-23T18:36:00.000-08:00I do very much like the Holly Street bridge, it's ...I do very much like the Holly Street bridge, it's very pretty and very appropriate for the Bay Area.<BR/><BR/>To be fair, as a wheelchair user I look at the Howard Bl. underpass and cringe - that incline under the bridge would be too steep for a wheelchair, and pedestrians are one thing that will have to be taken into account during this project.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14186947428645370594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-69576720105675872492009-02-23T18:33:00.000-08:002009-02-23T18:33:00.000-08:00There is Nothing wrong with thoses crossings!!! it...There is Nothing wrong with thoses crossings!!! it looks alot nicer than some of those currently<BR/>in MenloPark. This whole issue is so over-hyped by a super-senstive small group of no-it-alls that most people would have no problem with a nice design soultion to this issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-43899814763087536042009-02-23T18:10:00.000-08:002009-02-23T18:10:00.000-08:00One commenter said that the design for the HSR sho...One commenter said that the design for the HSR should through Palo Alto should be left up to the Palo Alto residents and them alone. I don't entirely agree with that. Human nature being what it is, when somebody else is footing the bill, they will take the most expensive option no matter what. I think there's a lot of room for negotiations and concessions. But someone who refuses to come to the negotiation table and hires lawyers to demand "tunnel or nothing" should be met head on with lawyers.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to hear what some folks from Palo Alto (whether you support the HSR, are opposed to it, or would simply like to see it built sensitively) have to say about the grade separations in San Carlos and Belmont. There are quite a few of them and in my mind they are very attractive and sensitive, and do NOT cleave the community in two. But then I am not a Palo Alto resident. In any case, I believe that something like this is exactly what is proposed for the "raised RR" grade separations in Palo Alto.<BR/><BR/>In case you're not familiar, here are some links:<BR/><A HREF="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Carlos,+CA&sll=37.498993,-122.250377&sspn=0.003805,0.008433&ie=UTF8&ll=37.498644,-122.24998&spn=0.003805,0.008433&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.498812,-122.250172&panoid=bXKivTE08jOU5r4WK7CuPg&cbp=12,62.09570054033209,,0,3.541848420395164" REL="nofollow">Howard Avenue</A><BR/><A HREF="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Carlos,+CA&sll=37.498993,-122.250377&sspn=0.003805,0.008433&ie=UTF8&ll=37.500661,-122.252501&spn=0.001711,0.008433&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.500662,-122.252496&panoid=Dethp0ssi2zoarigiyxBiQ&cbp=11,45.78026936996067,,0,2.5974477346225284" REL="nofollow">Brittan Avenue</A><BR/><A HREF="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Carlos,+CA&sll=37.498993,-122.250377&sspn=0.003805,0.008433&ie=UTF8&ll=37.508671,-122.261696&spn=0.001711,0.008433&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.508674,-122.261691&panoid=QenBHuJQz0tnQM7pwHIbAA&cbp=11,48.96729849876902,,0,-2.2076567961324125" REL="nofollow">Holly Street</A><BR/><A HREF="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Carlos,+CA&sll=37.498993,-122.250377&sspn=0.003805,0.008433&ie=UTF8&ll=37.517274,-122.272575&spn=0.00171,0.008433&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.517137,-122.271889&panoid=xq86IUS8J69zflG48VndTw&cbp=11,50.46620417035507,,0,-2.490310003823881" REL="nofollow">Harbor Boulevard</A><BR/><BR/><BR/>I can see how residents of Palo Alto would be uneasy because they're <I>unsure</I> what will be built. But if you were guaranteed something at least as attractive as the ones above, would you be entertain the idea? At the very least, when you consider the above bridges, the comments of "OMG Berlin Wall!" can be dismissed offhand.Owen Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15934578266643759835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64381029876000190542009-02-23T13:40:00.000-08:002009-02-23T13:40:00.000-08:00"There is an assumption in the post that only one ..."<I>There is an assumption in the post that only one mid-peninsula should (or will) be built. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this assumption is probably based on the notion that too many stations would mean too many stops, which would mean too long travel times.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Not just that ... also that each stop introduced complexity in the alignment.<BR/><BR/>But, basically, yeah ... it would be a serious mistake to start allocating High Speed Rail stations like they were local transit stations.<BR/><BR/>Having mixed stopping patterns, where some services skip one and other services skip the other, introduces excessive complexity, especially given that many passengers will be occasional rather than daily riders.<BR/><BR/>And it interferes with transit oriented development if its not clear at the outset that the "HSR station is <I>here</I>", because it interferes with using the HSR station as an anchor for local rail, bus, bike and foot transport.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85419471175121859612009-02-23T13:32:00.000-08:002009-02-23T13:32:00.000-08:00"BruceDo you have some links to examples? I'd love..."<I>Bruce<BR/><BR/>Do you have some links to examples? I'd love to see these.</I>"<BR/><BR/>No, all the cycleways alongside rail lines I have are at grade, and the elevated cycleways are free standing and therefore have a much higher capital cost ... but in my experience in cycling on rail-trail, as long as its paved, the grade is great for cycling.<BR/><BR/>If Palo Alto and Redwood City are about 6 miles apart, they could keep the cycleway running alongside the corridor, sharing the grade separation ... 6 miles without a lot of intervening hills is quite reasonable.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-50223696927840718402009-02-23T12:37:00.000-08:002009-02-23T12:37:00.000-08:00Anon @ 9:21 PM:"Remember, this blog is the communi...Anon @ 9:21 PM:<BR/><BR/>"Remember, this blog is the community, not the designers of the system. It is a conversation, not the legal and technical shepherd of the system."<BR/><BR/>Hear, hear! I'd like everyone to realize that this is NOT an official CAHSR site. This is a small community trying to think about these issues. Going off on well-meaning if misguided (in your opinion) thoughts is (A) counter-productive and (B) makes your viewpoint come across poorly. Constructive criticism in a positive tone is far more likely to advance your viewpoint and bring about good thought-provoking concepts and better solutions (although, again, this is a private blog so these concepts may well never come to pass).<BR/><BR/>Also, can all Anon's <I>please</I> use a unique name? Use fake names, whatever, but it really helps to identify the threads in the comments - all the Anon posts gets really confusing.timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85035269882837401692009-02-23T10:14:00.000-08:002009-02-23T10:14:00.000-08:00The solution of station choice is simple. Let the...The solution of station choice is simple. Let the cities compete for it. and certainly don't put it in cities that are not supportive. If palo altans are going to continue to be a pain in the ass then they don't deserve a station anyway. Redwood city is far more blue collar and full of regular working folks who need more transit and would likely welcome it, along with the tax revenue it would generate. The uppity butts-don't stink folks in PA are clearly above using something as dirty as public transit anyway. Whatever city steps up to cooperate and kick in, is the one who gets the station.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38783842015722917402009-02-23T06:44:00.000-08:002009-02-23T06:44:00.000-08:00There is an assumption in the post that only one m...There is an assumption in the post that only one mid-peninsula should (or will) be built. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this assumption is probably based on the notion that too many stations would mean too many stops, which would mean too long rtavel times.<BR/>However, the first part in this logic is flawed: trains do not have to stop at every single station. If one had two mid-peninsula stations, one could have (say) 40% of trains stopping at one, 40% at the other, and 20% stopping at both. That way, the majority of the trains keep the nice quick travel times, but the population served by HSR would be higher. This is similar to how fast passenger rail operates in most countries (look at the stopping patterns of express trains of the West Coast Main Line in the UK for an example).TomWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453251490705724225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45561684642881982942009-02-23T03:51:00.000-08:002009-02-23T03:51:00.000-08:00@ anon @ 6:53pm -I just pointed out that keeping g...@ anon @ 6:53pm -<BR/><BR/>I just pointed out that keeping grade crossings is <I>theoretically</I> possible because FRA rules would permit it for the speed classification that HSR requires in the peninsula. The plan is, quite rightly, to fully separate the grades. Retaining any grade crossings is very much plan B, just in case local communities and CHSRA cannot agree on a grade separation strategy.<BR/><BR/>@ anon @ 6:59pm -<BR/><BR/>please understand that I wasn't advocating an HSR station near Oregon Expressway in any case. I was merely pointing out that it's a road that is much better equipped to handle heavy cross traffic than University Ave. is.<BR/><BR/>It is precisely because of the impact of additional cross traffic that planners are considering at least two other options Redwood City and no mid-peninsula station at all.<BR/><BR/>@ anon @ 7:53pm -<BR/><BR/>wasn't it the county of San Mateo that bloated the BART extension to SFO project by insisting on a subway - rather than at-grade - alignment between Daly City and San Bruno? At the request of the MTC, SMCTA just re-allocated $91 million from the Dumbarton rail project to BART, which had previously put its already-planned Warm Springs extension on hold to plug a $146 million hole in the SFO extension project. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure whose idea it was to build the ramp from Millbrae to SFO, but the SamTrans shuttle from Millbrae was also canceled because of the general cost escalation. The BART shuttle was later canceled due to lack of demand, relative to the high cost of operating it - the driver's union insisted it represented a line on par with the others that BART operates. On those, drivers get to take a break every time they reach the end of the line.<BR/><BR/>@ Aaron -<BR/><BR/>wish that it were so simple. He JPB bought the peninsula ROW from UPRR after it merged with the ailing SP. As often happens in these cases, it was not an outright sale but one with an easement permitting UPRR to continue to limited operations to support its remaining customers in the Port of SF.<BR/><BR/>From what I understand, there are just one or two freight trains in each direction, collecting rail car before running across to the UPRR marshaling yard in Fremont via the Milpitas line through San Jose.<BR/><BR/>Simply shutting out UPRR of the peninsula is neither legally possible nor practical. Any freight not transported to and from the by-now minor port of SF by rail would have to use the freeways instead and, 101 is clogged enough as it is.<BR/><BR/>More prosaically, Caltrain already depends on trackage rights from UPRR for service down to Gilroy. Now CHSRA is looking for ways to add new tracks along that corridor and, obtaining land from UPRR would be the simplest way to go about that. So far, they're not interested but it wouldn't benefit anyone at this point to portray them as the villains of the play. That section of ROW is part of the Central Coast line, one of just two connecting Southern and Northern California (the other is across Tehachapi Pass).<BR/><BR/>CHSRA is also seeking co-operation from UPRR between Bakersfield and Palmdale as well as in the Central Valley north of Fresno and for part of the Inland Empire route.<BR/><BR/>@ anon @ 12:58am -<BR/><BR/>the smart growth plan addresses the congestion issues on University Ave on just one small but important section: Alma Street to El Camino Real. Alma Street would be straightened and the intersection with University restored to grade. The interchange with El Camino Real would remain grade separated.<BR/><BR/>Implementation would require tracks to be either raised or lowered, two of the options being considered. The existing two-lane underpass would be replaced by a generous two-lane roundabout (traffic circle).<BR/><BR/>However, the plan doesn't really address the larger issue of congestion on University east of Alma. One option would be to have the new one-way cross roads connect Lytton and Hamilton to Palm Drive, yielding a triangle with rounded corners. Alma Street would remain a two-way street, but with an additional northbound lane between Lytton and Hamilton. The Alma/University interchange would be reduced to a T (or eliminated altogether if University were to be converted into a pedestrian zone, connected to the station via a pedestrian/bicycle overpass).<BR/><BR/>The modification would require mitigation of knock-on effects at Webster and/or Middlefield.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70712031311747027252009-02-23T00:58:00.000-08:002009-02-23T00:58:00.000-08:00Speaking of Palo Alto, there is an existing plan s...Speaking of Palo Alto, there is an existing plan slowly being moved through the process--http://www.smartgrowthplanning.org/PaloAltoIntermodal.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-5720027456769352062009-02-22T22:51:00.000-08:002009-02-22T22:51:00.000-08:00BruceDo you have some links to examples? I'd love ...Bruce<BR/><BR/>Do you have some links to examples? I'd love to see these.<BR/><BR/>Re: Bart to SFO - there was a really simple great solution and Kopp was personally responsible for pushing through another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-10879304995083295422009-02-22T22:36:00.000-08:002009-02-22T22:36:00.000-08:00"Cars speed up significantly going through any und..."<I>Cars speed up significantly going through any underpass that even vaguely reminds them of going under a freeway (the only exception are cute little English village bridges). This speedup makes routes that were safe for kids unsafe.</I>"<BR/><BR/>The pedestrian and cycle underpasses do not have to be the same grade as the road underpasses ... f'rinstance, the pedestrian and cycle underpasses could pass through at grade, while the road underpasses are cut below grade in order to provide more clearance.<BR/><BR/>In terms of the normal HSR station pattern for a large metro area ... outer suburban station, inner urban station, outer suburban station ... doesn't the mid-Peninsula station fill in the "outer suburban" slot both south of SF and north of SJ?<BR/><BR/>In terms of cycle throughways, a strong solution is elevated HSR with flanking elevated cycle throughway, with the access ramps taking advantage of the space under the elevated section.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26243764144612082302009-02-22T21:26:00.000-08:002009-02-22T21:26:00.000-08:00@Aaron: I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The airport sh...@Aaron: I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The airport shuttle van met every Caltrain at the old Millbrae station.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.com