tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post9062277083695599255..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Grade Separations Done RightRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger125125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80375313498286434292009-06-10T10:59:55.401-07:002009-06-10T10:59:55.401-07:00Hey, I'm new to the blog so take it easy. My u...Hey, I'm new to the blog so take it easy. My understanding is that the Caltrain tracks on the Peninsula are actually owned by Amtrak and/ok freight lines and that any HSR proposal needs to allow for 2 additional freight gauge tracks. So 2 freight, and 4 Caltrain/HSR means 6 to me. How am I wrong?<br /><br />Also, Caltrain as a responsible neighbor is kind of laughable to those of us up against the tracks here. Based on my experience with them recently regarding a proposed and long-planned project to raise grades in San Mateo as part of a the ancient bridge replacement project, communications with community is poor, and planning is feckless. It took a very late stage neighborhood meeting to remind Caltrain that spend $$ now on grade change in the face of HSR was maybe not such a good idea. There were a number of other substantive issues they had not addressed and they had to fold and tell us they'd get back to us in a few more years.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00344059241190736092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-30211853610215448072009-03-05T11:00:00.000-08:002009-03-05T11:00:00.000-08:00"The only ones who think people should not use the..."The only ones who think people should not use the NIMBY argument are the ones who's back yards are not affected."<BR/><BR/>A fair critique, but for the record a couple thoughts:<BR/><BR/>1. Most of the people on this blog that have a problem with the NIMBY argument wouldn't mind having the train in their backyard, myself included. This is probably a result of being transit/train fans, but nonetheless it is true. Personally I cannot afford peninsula prices ;-)<BR/><BR/>2. There is a small subset of people that are interested enough in HSR to be advocates/posting on this blog. The number of them that live on this route directly is very small, despite point 1, just cause the number of people that directly live on that ROW as a percentage of the whole population is small. Most of us live some distance away in a bell curve distribution. The NIMBY crowd, on the other hand, has a direct relationship to the area in hand for obvious reasons. So it will always look like outsiders telling the people on the line what to do. This is just the nature of the beast, unfortunately. <BR/><BR/>I think the only "solution" is for both sides to be as rational and open to alternate ideas as possible. I truly believe that there is space for compromise in this - that between the width of the ROW already, the noise of the existing trains (I work near the Belmont station area, so I have no illusions as to the existing trains), the benefits to the line that may not occur without HSR (electrification, grade separation, etc.) - that there is enough space for a solution. That is, I think that if CAHSR is rational and the residents are rational (neither is guaranteed, unfortunately) that in the end the properties even immediately adjacent will not be materially affected by the changes. There will be some benefits (less noise per train, less interruption on the streets, etc.) and some detriments (more quantity of trains, more visual intrusions in some areas). Overall, I think there is space for both sides to be satisfied.timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14616438885936740492009-03-05T07:47:00.000-08:002009-03-05T07:47:00.000-08:00I have been reading some back and forth about the ...I have been reading some back and forth about the whole thing and, as always, the only people who think others should sacrifice are the ones who don't have to sacrifice themselves. The only ones who think people should not use the NIMBY argument are the ones who's back yards are not affected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17031741565615038282009-03-03T16:53:00.000-08:002009-03-03T16:53:00.000-08:00Rafael-Thanks for the response, I really appreciat...Rafael-<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it. So (to summarize, let me know if this is inaccurate) you believe that a 2-track solution is feasible but not advised even right off the bat, that the speed delta - especially between Caltrain local service and HSR - would cause operational issues pretty fast.timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17918063270764320222009-03-03T16:29:00.000-08:002009-03-03T16:29:00.000-08:00The neglect of our railroads and the rise of the p...The neglect of our railroads and the rise of the personal automobile is really hurting us right now, as rafael states. I wonder if when they were tearing up railroads and building right up next to two and one track right of ways, if were ever thought, "Hey, do you think we might need these railroads again someday?" <BR/><BR/>"No," another person might have replied, "In California, the car is king!"<BR/><BR/>However, I doubt the question was ever asked.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-18836071702014020792009-03-03T15:34:00.000-08:002009-03-03T15:34:00.000-08:00@ timote -FRA rules on mixed traffic are a big par...@ timote -<BR/><BR/>FRA rules on mixed traffic are a big part of the equation, but so is capacity. Caltrain is a commuter rail service. It wants signaling upgrades for 90mph top speed and line electrification for the added acceleration that electric motors can deliver. That combo would get its local trains from SF to SJ 10 minutes faster.<BR/><BR/>The baby bullet service would be upgraded as well. Caltrain expects to triple its ridership by 2025, with 10tph.<BR/><BR/>Combining local service that frequently slows down and speeds up to no more than 90mph with express trains at 125mph on the same tracks doesn't work well enough for either. The HSR starter line needs to run 4-6tph right off the bat to start building sufficient ridership and turn an operating profit that then funds the phase II spurs. The HSR line also needs to have enough ultimate capacity to avoid having to upgrade after just a decade or so.<BR/><BR/>A two-track alignment with four tracks just at all the Caltrain stations and wherever the ROW is wide enough to add bypass tracks would reduce the up-front construction cost a bit, especially if the alignment is kept at grade. If the hoped-for ridership materializes, the alignment could then be fully grade separated and upgraded to a full four tracks in stages.<BR/><BR/>The problem with that approach is that continual tinkering with an active line is always disruptive and ultimately more expensive than if you invest more up front. A great deal depends on how much faith you have in the accuracy of Caltrain's and CHSRA's ridership projections, given that they are hardly impartial observers.<BR/><BR/>This conflict is especially acute for fundamental grade separation decisions: the more over- and underpasses are added to an at-grade alignment, the harder/more expensive it becomes to elevate or lower long sections of the alignment later on.<BR/><BR/>Peninsula cities essentially failed to preserve the option of one day substantially expanding train service while orchards turned into Silicon Valley. Their zoning laws permitted low-rise residential housing to directly abut a narrow railroad ROW. Absent any high-rise zones, property values everywhere went through the roof, including even those abutting the railroad.<BR/><BR/>Now, an effort reversing decades of benign but foolish neglect of the railroad ROW is proving to be very painful for all concerned. Failing to protect options for future expansion of a transportation artery is usually a costly mistake - that's why new freeways are always built with generous medians.<BR/><BR/>It certainly doesn't help that e.g. the city of Palo Alto was asleep at the wheel even as Mountain View and others took notice, got informed and engaged in the process.<BR/><BR/>I just hope those demanding tunnels through suburbia or even massive route changes realize that sinking the HSR project will lock California into a car + plane transportation culture forever. And as California goes, so goes (most) of the nation.<BR/><BR/>That upshot of that would be massively greater costs in the future, because the regional and long-distance transportation capacity required to support population and economic growth could only come from even more freeways and airport runways.<BR/><BR/>When - not if - the oil runs out, a lack of efficient modes of transport based on domestic (preferably renewable) sources of primary energy will lead to more war. Not with potentates running producer nations, but with other consumer nations in Europe and Asia.<BR/><BR/>And all that because some homeowners in the San Francisco peninsula bought property right next to an active passenger rail line? After Iraq, this really is a case of shooting yourself in the foot and then reloading quickly. But I forget: Americans don't pay for their wars, their children and grandchildren do. They can't be bothered to connect the dots.<BR/><BR/>Hoorah for more guns! Boo for infrastructure! Who needs that, anyhow? Send the Marines!Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-55157938225141999302009-03-03T15:20:00.000-08:002009-03-03T15:20:00.000-08:00A Realist: "Make up your mind. Are these elevated,...A Realist: "<I>Make up your mind. Are these elevated, grade separated or not? If they are elevated and grade separated we get a Berlin wall. And please quit posting pictures of cavernous valleys with bridges as grade separators, this is a VALLEY, that is flat, hence the name, Silicon VALLEY.</I>"<BR/><BR/>In reality, those are not bridges, they are viaducts. You can put a viaduct along level terrain ... indeed, in a lot of ways its easier to put a viaduct along level terrain, since you can use a simple, attractive, repeated arch support structure.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35838209171217995102009-03-03T13:12:00.000-08:002009-03-03T13:12:00.000-08:00OwenE - I seriously doubt that Atherton will win a...OwenE - I seriously doubt that Atherton will win a court judgement to force the rail line onto the 101 median. It doesn't make any sense, and it won't even come close to passing a cost-benefit test. I'd think the likelihood of moving the alignment to Altamont is higher than the likelihood of moving it to 101. Of course, if BART runs down the East Bay to San Jose, then there's no guarantee that HSR wouldn't just use Caltrain tracks to access San Jose Diridon anyway. Oops!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-30142265777054123202009-03-03T13:03:00.000-08:002009-03-03T13:03:00.000-08:00Rafael et al-Are four tracks really really require...Rafael et al-<BR/><BR/>Are four tracks really really required or is this mostly an FRA thing with mixing the freight traffic.<BR/><BR/>That is, could we get away with two tracks for the foreseeable future? I'm just trying to think about the issues of these peninsula NIMBY's and whether they are largely a result of lame policy or real technical issues.<BR/><BR/>So here is my question:<BR/>If we built two new lines that were completely elevated structures like the Hong Kong viaduct (link in one of these comments), and these lines were shared Caltrain and HSR, would that significantly limit the lifespan of the solution? Are we building instant legacy, or is that a reasonable option? The issue then becomes one of freight, I guess we could leave the existing tracks for that. Of course, it would still need to address issues with the height of stations.<BR/><BR/>The reason I ask is that from that Hong Kong link, it appears on first blush that you can make an attractive elevated structure with decent soundproofing that would limit/eliminate the expansion of the ROW. Not sure of the expense of this solution in comparison to berm, at grade, trench, etc., just trying to think about solutions here.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous @ 5:12 pm:<BR/><BR/>"I live in the East Bay and still think the idea of a train track 50 feet above the ground is a bad idea. That 50 foot number came from the CAHSR website."<BR/><BR/>Link?timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-43131318781378835622009-03-03T12:01:00.000-08:002009-03-03T12:01:00.000-08:00"Make up your mind. Are these elevated, grade sepa..."Make up your mind. Are these elevated, grade separated or not?"<BR/><BR/>It was always meant to be grade separated. Somehow the opposition can't even research the most basic facts about this project.<BR/><BR/>"If these are not elevated and they run on ground level, there certainly is no crossing the tracks and danger abounds."<BR/><BR/>At-grade doesn't mean there will be crossings. Roads can also be lowered to go under the right of way.<BR/><BR/>"No need to waste these on freeways and established transportation corridors."<BR/><BR/>The Caltrain ROW is an established transportation corridor.<BR/><BR/>"How about put HSR right through Monterey (in Robert's backyard -- no, his actual backyard)."<BR/><BR/>If the ridership is there or the alignment made sense, hell yeah.<BR/><BR/>"I say put these right on Spyglass Hill, then run the tracks through all the residential areas there, through Carmel, Clint Eastwoods house, Doris Day's house etc."<BR/><BR/>Again, if the ridership was there or the alignment made sense, I would be 100% for it.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-60108098016249337472009-03-03T11:51:00.000-08:002009-03-03T11:51:00.000-08:00Anonymous 11:36, thats a great idea. Why don't we...Anonymous 11:36, thats a great idea. Why don't we just run these trains right through pebble beach, after all High Speed Rail corridors actually <I>IMPROVE</I> every historic destination where they are built according to this blog. No need to waste these on freeways and established transportation corridors. I say put these right on Spyglass Hill, then run the tracks through all the residential areas there, through Carmel, Clint Eastwoods house, Doris Day's house etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-11695051787600908272009-03-03T11:36:00.000-08:002009-03-03T11:36:00.000-08:00I got an idea. How about put HSR right through Mon...I got an idea. How about put HSR right through Monterey (in Robert's backyard -- no, his actual backyard). If he likes it so much, why not have it there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-4581952924187733392009-03-03T10:57:00.000-08:002009-03-03T10:57:00.000-08:00This is a link to an interesting article concernin...This is a link to an interesting article concerning the engineering issues (Esp. noise) of a Hong Kong Rail Viaduct.<BR/><BR/>http://www.arup.com/_assets/_download/7D33E385-F1C1-0F8B-AE09695D3D074B1E.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70840458790699121272009-03-03T10:45:00.000-08:002009-03-03T10:45:00.000-08:00Spokker,NIMBY: There will be so many electric trai...Spokker,<BR/><BR/><I>NIMBY: There will be so many electric trains on the peninsula that we won't be able to cross the tracks!<BR/><BR/>CAHSRA Rep.: To help placate fears that residents won't be able to cross the tracks we are planning to install signs on each railroad overpass that reads, "Go under, stupid."</I><BR/><BR/>Make up your mind. Are these elevated, grade separated or not? If they are elevated and grade separated we get a Berlin wall. And please quit posting pictures of cavernous valleys with bridges as grade separators, this is a VALLEY, that is flat, hence the name, Silicon <B>VALLEY</B>. If these are not elevated and they run on ground level, there certainly is no crossing the tracks and danger abounds.<BR/><BR/>Your attitude of "you people are stupid" will not repair this PR mess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15430805549727595692009-03-03T07:31:00.000-08:002009-03-03T07:31:00.000-08:00Elevated high-ish speed (125mph electric trains) i...Elevated high-ish speed (125mph electric trains) in a suburban setting: http://www.durham-ppe.co.uk/Viaduct.jpg<BR/>(Durham, on the East coast Main Line in the UK. Has around ten trains an hour, not all of which stop here)TomWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453251490705724225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-6192796527397122612009-03-03T03:16:00.000-08:002009-03-03T03:16:00.000-08:00@ Spokker -thx for hanging in there, I've been mea...@ Spokker -<BR/><BR/>thx for hanging in there, I've been meaning to address the ROW issues in the Inland Empire-San Diego spur and LA-Anaheim-Irvine for some time now and have done the research.<BR/><BR/>It's just that we have a lot of activity around HSR in the peninsula right now. Of course, it doesn't help that CHSRA decided to pick right now to throw a spanner in SFTT works.<BR/><BR/>My guess is that they've been complaining about throughput and parking capacity behind the scenes for quite a while now, but things have come to a head because TJPA intends to request stimulus funds out of the $8 billion reserved for HSR, rather than the state block grants.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-24470813294750358232009-03-03T02:52:00.000-08:002009-03-03T02:52:00.000-08:00You are right Spokker. I visit this blog daily, bu...You are right Spokker. I visit this blog daily, but it should be rename just for the Peninsula. <BR/>I would love to see more on the other 95% of the rail. <BR/>Are there any plans to remodel Union Station into something like Transbay Terminal? <BR/><BR/>Any news in regards to the solar farm on Palmdale Airport and how it might affect HSR?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921484762717344541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-9085688574005979452009-03-03T01:15:00.000-08:002009-03-03T01:15:00.000-08:00The Transbay Terminal dilemma does not suprise me....The Transbay Terminal dilemma does not suprise me. <BR/><BR/>For one, a fellow who's name escapes me right now, posted many failings of many of the alternatives vetted for the terminal. Initially I was skeptical b/c on first blush he seemd like a ranting troll.. thus he lacked credibility. However, after following his rants and looking at the detailed and seemingly engineered docs he posted to the web illustrating the options... his comments seemed to have a bit more merit. He tried to make clear for all that would listen that the Transbay Terminal was underdesignd.... I think mostly having to do with platform curves and lengths, inadequacy of tail tracks, etc.<BR/><BR/>This was 2-3 years ago. <BR/><BR/>Here's his site:<BR/><BR/>http://www.sonic.net/~mly/ <BR/><BR/>Secondly, I've tried to engineer myself how the proposed system will carry all the riders that CHSRA says will use the system. The work behind the numbers aside, the large number of riders anticipated to use a set of train trips... and only 28 stations... tells me that CHSRA needs to plan on very heavy loads.... speaking to robust station facilities and longer trains and quite possibly double decked trains.<BR/><BR/>As much as I want to support planning efforts for the CHSRA, I should be dumbfounded that the Transbay Terminal capacity issue ONLY surfaced 3 weeks ago by hired engineers and the Authority!!!!Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70892366443899200142009-03-03T00:57:00.001-08:002009-03-03T00:57:00.001-08:00The Transbay Terminal is a strange beast. I mean, ...The Transbay Terminal is a strange beast. I mean, it <I>can</I> be an HSR station, but it isn't necessarily an HSR station. Anyway, that's how I understood it. Would my assessment be correct?<BR/><BR/>In any case, goddamn, I can't wait until the focus gets to Orange County. I'll be honest I'm sick of all this peninsula bullshit :)Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52483788857103397452009-03-03T00:57:00.000-08:002009-03-03T00:57:00.000-08:00Robert,"The notion that HSR's impact on the Caltra...Robert,<BR/><I>"The notion that HSR's impact on the Caltrain corridor is some sort of "surprise!" is not credible and I thank folks like Bruce McF for pointing that out. There was ample explanation of this going back several years."</I><BR/><BR/>In addition to that, a few years ago the CHSRA asked local jurisdictions to reflect the HSR system into the local planing documents and review.Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-91991346103223689812009-03-03T00:50:00.000-08:002009-03-03T00:50:00.000-08:00Robert,"As to the train box at Transbay Terminal, ...Robert,<BR/><I>"As to the train box at Transbay Terminal, realize that if the CHSRA was the evil organization some paranoid types claim it to be, it would have never said a thing about the train box issue. They could have easily kept quiet about it and let someone else deal with the problem 20 years down the line.<BR/><BR/>But they didn't. They did the right thing and pointed out the problem now, before final decisions were made. I should think that ought to be commended."</I><BR/><BR/>I had the same exact thought. Mehidi Morshedi should be applauded for comming out with this information.Brandon in Californiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796810137823230737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71532432437051353402009-03-02T23:52:00.000-08:002009-03-02T23:52:00.000-08:00Spokker, I kid, I kid.What's real though is that o...Spokker, I kid, I kid.<BR/><BR/>What's real though is that on the peninsula people know Caltrain. They trust Caltrain. They even <I>like</I> Caltrain. CHSRA needs to step back and let Caltrain work this stuff out.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570027785365903956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-10661568845419407002009-03-02T23:42:00.000-08:002009-03-02T23:42:00.000-08:00It's an HSR Berlin Wall, except, you know, that no...It's an HSR Berlin Wall, except, you know, that nobody could freely cross under the Berlin Wall at a whim.<BR/><BR/>Perfect analogy. *rolls eyes*Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-69230386671299419762009-03-02T23:40:00.000-08:002009-03-02T23:40:00.000-08:00Eric, I'm pretty sure the protesters are well-vers...Eric, I'm pretty sure the protesters are well-versed in all things rafael and were sure to read up on his volumes of HSR related postings.<BR/><BR/>They are trying to use two diametrically opposed situations to instill fear in area residents. First, they complain about 20 foot high grade separations. But then they complain that nobody will be able to cross the tracks because there will be so many trains per hour.<BR/><BR/>Wait, which is it? Those two statements were said <I>at the same protest</I>.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-56795836822254397732009-03-02T23:38:00.000-08:002009-03-02T23:38:00.000-08:00NIMBY: There will be so many electric trains on th...NIMBY: There will be so many electric trains on the peninsula that we won't be able to cross the tracks!<BR/><BR/>CAHSRA Rep.: To help placate fears that residents won't be able to cross the tracks we are planning to install signs on each railroad overpass that reads, "Go under, stupid."<BR/><BR/>NIMBY: THE SIGNS ARE GOING TO CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE.<BR/><BR/>CAHSRA Rep.: *shoots self*Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.com