tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post9115639390348488133..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Homeland Security TheaterRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-7800850034202674262009-04-17T23:46:00.000-07:002009-04-17T23:46:00.000-07:00If the costs are deliberately bloated, then the co...If the costs are deliberately bloated, then the contractors are likelier to offer higher bids for the same work. This will just transfer money from the State of California to the contractors. It's good for stimulus, but bad for getting the project done.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-46331204775723931432009-04-17T17:35:00.000-07:002009-04-17T17:35:00.000-07:00@ Alon Levy, mike -
I'm sure that pretty much all...@ Alon Levy, mike -<br /><br />I'm sure that pretty much all the numbers are padded a little to provide some additional hidden contingency fees. The fencing is just 1% of the total cost, at this point there's little value in optimizing that one aspect. The really sharp calculations will only come when vendors have to compete on the bases of the completed project-level EIR/EIS in open tender.<br /><br />Btw, 780 miles is more like 1250km.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-74826117892281161572009-04-17T17:15:00.000-07:002009-04-17T17:15:00.000-07:00Mike: my concern isn't that fences will cost too m...Mike: my concern isn't that fences will cost too much, but that everything will.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-63376844482937066832009-04-17T15:43:00.000-07:002009-04-17T15:43:00.000-07:00$100 per meter doesn't seem like it would be a big...$100 per meter doesn't seem like it would be a big deal. Entire system (including spurs) is around 1,000 km, so you have 2,000 km of fencing. That works out to $200 million on a $45,000 million system. Sounds pretty reasonable.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17594892477369094802009-04-17T08:27:00.000-07:002009-04-17T08:27:00.000-07:00The fence material isn't that expensive, either. I...The fence material isn't that expensive, either. I'm not saying they should skimp, but I am saying that if the cost estimate here is excessive, maybe other parts of the project have overblown costs, too. The project does cost more per km than comparable HSR projects around the world, even after subtracting the costs of tunneling under Pacheco and the Tehachapis.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-53402353620285086312009-04-17T06:58:00.000-07:002009-04-17T06:58:00.000-07:00@ Alon Levy -
the fence material isn't free. Besi...@ Alon Levy -<br /><br />the fence material isn't free. Besides, this is one aspect they shouldn't skimp on. I'd say heavy gauge wire and 8' tall, minimum.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45895852412997162572009-04-17T01:26:00.000-07:002009-04-17T01:26:00.000-07:00I don't want to see airport style security on trai...I don't want to see airport style security on trains. If that's what's going to happen I would never ride another train again.<br /><br />The security dramatics don't really work. And if I'm going to get blown to bits I might as well get blown to bits and not have to deal with airport style security.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-37162468425970626522009-04-16T22:03:00.000-07:002009-04-16T22:03:00.000-07:00Where do they get the cost of $100 per meter of fe...Where do they get the cost of $100 per meter of fence from? It sounds excessive - it implies it takes two and a half man-hours to erect a meter of fence even at union wage; at market wage, make that five.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41058248855031063162009-04-16T16:56:00.000-07:002009-04-16T16:56:00.000-07:00It is noteworthy that Obama joked today about "not...It is noteworthy that Obama joked today about "not having to take your shoes off" with regard to benefits of HSR. Sounds like airport-style security is (happily) very unlikely.Andrew Boganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02476018138604522417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-12634356594676008652009-04-16T14:22:00.000-07:002009-04-16T14:22:00.000-07:00@ mike -
I appreciate your point, but my intent w...@ mike -<br /><br />I appreciate your point, but my intent was to focus on rail security. This may not be the appropriate forum for spelling out in detail novel ways to blow stuff up.<br /><br />Fwiw, the Golden Gate bridge is a suspension design, which means it is <A HREF="http://goldengatebridge.org/research/factsGGBDesign.php#Bridgedeflection" REL="nofollow">a lot more flexible</A> than you might think. For example, the lateral displacement of the center span during a gale in 1951 was twenty-four feet (!), still well within tolerance. The design also features a lot of static redundancy.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-89428191719524273552009-04-16T12:55:00.000-07:002009-04-16T12:55:00.000-07:00@Bianca
I was generally assuming suicidal intent,...@Bianca<br /><br />I was generally assuming suicidal intent, but honestly I bet a terrorist could have a reasonable chance of escaping the blast if he (or she) wanted to. Suppose there was a 3 minute timer on the bomb and he had a bicycle with him. Obviously he takes the keys with him, and likely breaks the shift lever so you can't get the truck out of park. To avert catastrophe, CHP would have to arrive in less than 90 seconds, ascertain the situation in less than 30 seconds, commandeer a large vehicle to try to push the truck away in less than 30 seconds, and push the truck away from the suspension tower in less than 30 seconds. That's going to take a lot of luck.<br /><br />Meanwhile, it's unlikely that anyone would stop the terrorist biking away quickly in the western bike lane. Most people just have no idea what to do in these types of situations. For instance, there was a horrible case in the Central Valley last year of a guy who beat a small child or infant to death at the side of the highway, and only one person (unsuccessfully) even tried to stop him...everyone else just looked on in horror.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-87914254876198050242009-04-16T12:28:00.000-07:002009-04-16T12:28:00.000-07:00What would happen if a guy like Tim McVeigh drove ...<I>What would happen if a guy like Tim McVeigh drove his U-Haul truck onto the GG Bridge</I>Remember that Tim McVeigh parked that truck and walked away before detonating the explosives. Anyone who tried to get out and get off the bridge would get nowhere- they are already watching the Golden Gate closely for jumpers. Anyone trying to ditch a truck mid-bridge would attract a lot of attention. (For starters, from all the traffic backed up behind a stopped vehicle.)<br /><br />Now, a suicide bomber is a lot harder to stop. But that is the think about security- if someone is willing to die to accomplish their plan, it is very much harder to stop them. And really, the whole point of living in a free society would be lost if we were to implement the measures needed to stop suicide missions.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-36118662419622893012009-04-16T12:27:00.000-07:002009-04-16T12:27:00.000-07:00at bossyman- there wasn't a link - i saw it on tv...at bossyman- there wasn't a link - i saw it on tv not the web. It does exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-6265858721988053742009-04-16T11:56:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:56:00.000-07:00@Rafael/TomW
I don't know how hard it would be to...@Rafael/TomW<br /><br />I don't know how hard it would be to target a bridge. What would happen if a guy like Tim McVeigh drove his U-Haul truck onto the GG Bridge, loaded with a few thousand pounds of fertilizer bomb, and detonated it right next to one of the suspension towers? I have no idea, but I sure wouldn't want to be on the bridge when it happened. There's no way that CHP can screen every vehicle that travels on the bridge.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35305157327940561102009-04-16T11:53:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:53:00.000-07:00@ bossyman15 -
the 11-minute video of the Preside...@ bossyman15 -<br /><br />the 11-minute video of the President's remarks will be embedded in this afternoon's post.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-88994396288956816262009-04-16T11:52:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:52:00.000-07:00@ Rob Dawg -
not sure how you get to 1800 miles, ...@ Rob Dawg -<br /><br />not sure how you get to 1800 miles, the whole network is 780 miles long. Times 2 equals 1560 miles.<br /><br />For example, <A HREF="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/images/chsr/20080523150109_App%204_stacked.pdf" REL="nofollow">Volume 2 Chapter 4</A> of the Bay Area to Central Valley Final Program EIR/EIS specifies on p3 line item 7 under the heading Earthworks and Related Items (Caltrain 1 is SF TBT to 4th & King, Caltrain 2 4th & King to Millbrae):<br /><br />Fencing (Both Sides of R/W)<br />unit: km<br />unit price ($): 101,733<br />quantity Caltrain 1: 0.00<br />item cost ($) Caltrain 1: 0<br />quantity Caltrain 2: 19.95<br />item cost($) Caltrain 2: 2,029,570<br /><br />Wayside Protection System<br />unit: km<br />unit price ($): 67,144<br />quantity Caltrain 1: 2.50<br />item cost ($) Caltrain 1: 167,859<br />quantity Caltrain 2: 22.58<br />item cost($) Caltrain 2: 1,516,104<br /><br />Note that fencing is not needed for the DTX or the tunnels next to the four existing ones for Caltrain.<br /><br />Bottom line: fencing on both sides of ROW + trackside surveillance hardware = $217,723 per mile. For the fully built-out system, that comes to about $424 million or roughly 1% of total construction cost.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-91691833117420611752009-04-16T11:40:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:40:00.000-07:00Jim @ April 16, 2009 11:15 AM
Link or it didn't e...Jim @ April 16, 2009 11:15 AM<br /><br />Link or it didn't exist.bossyman15https://www.blogger.com/profile/04434928402545599443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76449166819702033042009-04-16T11:33:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:33:00.000-07:00@ ladyk -
one of the reasons the intermodal conne...@ ladyk -<br /><br />one of the reasons the intermodal connections are not all that popular in Europe is that you can now get to so many places directly by high speed rail. For example, Cologne-Paris is doesn't require a flight anymore.<br /><br />Note that United Airlines offers <A HREF="http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1125,00.html" REL="nofollow">GroundLink</A>, a broad range of intermodal connections from Paris CDG via TGV. That only works because the HSR station is just a people mover trip removed from the airport terminal. Note that this is a prerequisite for using the same IATA code for both the airport and the train station, so the trip shows up in flight search engines as having two legs rather than a less desirable three.<br /><br />In California, that will hopefully be the case at Palmdale, Ontario, perhaps even at Castle Airport near Merced. It won't be the case for LAX, SJC, FAT, SMF and probably not for SFO either.<br /><br />Lindbergh Field will have an intermodal terminal with all of the regional and statewide train services, but the intent is not to use them as feeders into the airport. Instead, the objective is to get passengers headed to California destinations served by HSR to <I>avoid</I> using the airport. It'll be interesting to see if San Diego county residents will be prepared to use HSR + Ontario for trips on planes too large to land at Lindbergh Field.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80357539343193101112009-04-16T11:25:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:25:00.000-07:00"The line will be fenced and equipped with intrusi..."The line will be fenced and equipped with intrusion detection equipment that can detect persons, animals or debris entering the right-of-way and linked to a central train control center."<br /><br />Priced just the 1800 miles of cyclone fence recently? I could be wrong and would appreciate a reference but I haven't seen a security cost breakout for the corridor.Rob Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10042154106850545479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14127558503682168462009-04-16T11:15:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:15:00.000-07:00side note - Obama was talking about CA hsr today -...side note - Obama was talking about CA hsr today - brieflyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-61222995314304246382009-04-16T11:14:00.000-07:002009-04-16T11:14:00.000-07:00The ROW could have cameras ( monitored in real tim...The ROW could have cameras ( monitored in real time by operations/security just like at the casinos) place along the entire length. in the stations basic security procedures - document check - metal detector - can be implemented fairly easily as the HSR platform access will be seperate and secure from the rest of the station. In addition, just as amtrak is doing now, more officers and dogs will patrol the trains. As a side note I have to say that I have flown several times in the few years and have never experienced any delay or hassle gong through airport security with the exception of palm springs when my DL was expired. i know at SFO the do a fantastic job of getting people through.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-16043680391899841522009-04-16T10:57:00.000-07:002009-04-16T10:57:00.000-07:00@Rafael, Brian
An addendum. I remember this long ...@Rafael, Brian<br /><br />An addendum. I remember this long report I once read about airport-rail-city connections and services with all those examples from around the world from Shanghai to Europe and North America. Unfortunately, I can't remember where on the internet I stumbled on it :-(. <br /><br />Anyway, I remember the report said that such check-in and baggage forwarding services don't receive much usage and have been curtailed or modified. For instance, you could check-in <I>and</I> drop off your baggage at Cologne and Stuttgart station for flights from Frankfurt but now there is simply a check-in/drop-off counter at the Frankfurt airport station though you can still check-in at Cologne and Stuttgart. <br /><br />Also, apparently passengers prefer the flexibility of getting the tickets by themselves and choosing the most suitable train ride from/to the airport station.ladyknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-89637092980676556852009-04-16T10:47:00.000-07:002009-04-16T10:47:00.000-07:00Making people "feel" safer is very different from ...Making people "feel" safer is very different from actual safety. And I disagree that security does make people feel safer -- I think it reminds people of terrorism and danger when really that isn't much of a danger at all. Disorder makes be feel more vulnerable and so low-level criminality/graffiti, trash and mess, broken things make people feel more under threat, but police and TSA can themselves create disorder sometimes.Christopher Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947034888487890485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-91915569938647363112009-04-16T10:25:00.000-07:002009-04-16T10:25:00.000-07:00@ Devil's Advocate -
thx, fixed.
@ Brian Tyler -...@ Devil's Advocate -<br /><br />thx, fixed.<br /><br />@ Brian Tyler -<br /><br />in Europe, you can check your bags at certain train stations and they will be forwarded to baggage handling at the airport at which you make the intermodal connection.<br /><br />However, I'm not aware of any system that permits passengers to go through security before boarding a train and then continuing straight to their airport gate without an additional security screening.<br /><br />Neither do I know of any trains that have screening equipment on board. That concept could make secondary airports (e.g. Ontario, Palmdale, perhaps Castle near Merced in the California context) much more attractive as it reduces time from door to gate.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13198037398485073172009-04-16T10:14:00.000-07:002009-04-16T10:14:00.000-07:00Like it or not we're not a nation of HSR, yet. I s...Like it or not we're not a nation of HSR, yet. I support the idea of security if it can help people feel safer, AND allow for inter-modality between airports. Imagine if you could clear security and get your boarding pass <I>before</I> boarding the train to make a connecting flight. My site, <A HREF="http://switchingmodes.wordpress.com" REL="nofollow">Switching Modes</A> aims to discuss topics such as this.Brian Tylerhttp://switchingmodes.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com