tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post3448159584134523833..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: LA - San Diego: Quo Vadis?Robert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2860611279671445282009-10-13T22:05:39.190-07:002009-10-13T22:05:39.190-07:00"There's a very slow winding trek through..."There's a very slow winding trek through the canyons just before you reach Downtown San Diego. It's wonderfully scenic, unless you've seen it many times before. There have been talks of bypassing this stretch of track for years but for now Coasters and Surfliners will just have to deal with it."<br /><br />Then why is the proposed HS route following precisely this torturous r.o.w.? Predictions of high speeds through this urban routing are absurd. Plus it is straight through a nature preserve as well as residential neighborhoods. Wonderfully scenic, as you say, and thousands enjoy it.<br /><br /> The HS route should continue on the I15 and I8 r.o.w. to the airport. Make it fit. Its a straight shot. Faster. Cleaner.Daddiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02875242136528653808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68491078556624912822009-03-12T13:30:00.000-07:002009-03-12T13:30:00.000-07:00Between LA and about Irvine, the Surfliner is fast...Between LA and about Irvine, the Surfliner is fast. I do Anaheim-LA all the time on either Metrolink or the Surfliner. During rush hour a Surfliner run from LA-Fullerton is only 30 minutes, much more preferable to puttering along on I-5. <BR/><BR/>South Orange County is where the Surfliner runs into trouble. You start running into a lot of single tracking, especially the single-track station at San Juan Capistrano.<BR/><BR/>Between San Clemente and Oceanside is where Surfliners (and Metrolink) can make up some time. Here the top speed is 90 MPH all the way to Oceanside. Few drivers on the freeway will be passing the train unless they want to run into a CHP officer who would kindly write them a ticket. If only the whole route could be that quick.<BR/><BR/>After Sorrento Valley the route falls apart completely. There's a very slow winding trek through the canyons just before you reach Downtown San Diego. It's wonderfully scenic, unless you've seen it many times before. There have been talks of bypassing this stretch of track for years but for now Coasters and Surfliners will just have to deal with it.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-21100613252071952582009-03-12T08:58:00.000-07:002009-03-12T08:58:00.000-07:00Spokker, you replied to Devils' Advocate better th...Spokker, you replied to Devils' Advocate better than I could have. Useless line to save 15 minutes? Amtrak from downtown SD to downtown LA takes 3 hours, and there are often delays. I gave up on using it for business, and my offices in both cities are walkable from the train station. Driving takes at least 2 hours, but that's at 2 am - I budget 3. And SD-LA isn't an isolated route - I look forward to taking the train from SD to SF.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00787162300960892738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-850920317025361552009-03-12T02:40:00.000-07:002009-03-12T02:40:00.000-07:00@ Devil's Advocate -there's one fly in your unctuo...@ Devil's Advocate -<BR/><BR/>there's one fly in your unctuous ointment: there is no passenger train from Fresno to LA at this time. You have to transfer to a bus at Bakersfield.<BR/><BR/>Other than that, you are of course completely correct. We'll never run out of oil because we have an infinite supply of idealistic young men and women who will gladly lay waste to entire countries so we can get <I>our</I> oil out from under <I>their</I> sand.<BR/><BR/>We'll even increase the Pentagon budget another 4% over and above the $515 billion it already gets, even when're totally broke because all that cheap gasoline made people think it was a really good idea to buy McMansions in the boonies. It's fine, just drive and fly, fly and drive, it sooooo cheap.<BR/><BR/>So yeah, let's not worry about ROW preservation because the land will still be there 20 years from now, just waiting to have tracks laid on top.<BR/><BR/>I said good day.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51643616083875992252009-03-11T17:31:00.000-07:002009-03-11T17:31:00.000-07:00@ Spokker - ' "Think about it. Would you take a tr...@ Spokker - <BR/>' "Think about it. Would you take a train from LA to SF for $200 r/t or would you rather take Virgin America for $115, even assuming similar travel times?"<BR/><BR/>The way things are going we might be able to take a Virgin train from LA-SF. '<BR/><BR/>Ha! What a comeback!Alex M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04082494097195214427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85788927521885964512009-03-11T17:18:00.000-07:002009-03-11T17:18:00.000-07:00"Why so much waste of energy and bytes to discuss ..."Why so much waste of energy and bytes to discuss possible routes for a line (SD-LA) that has no value and probably will never be built?"<BR/><BR/>The Pacific Surfliner is the most popular train on the Amtrak system outside of the Northeast Corridor. Since LA-SD is already a heavily traveled corridor there is a lot of interest in a high speed rail solution that gets you there in 1 hour and 18 minutes instead of the current 3 hours by train or two hours by car, despite the fact that damn thing is heading out to the Inland-Empire first.<BR/><BR/>"To save 15 min. to those who want to travel from SD to LA on an expensive HSR train?"<BR/><BR/>You'd be saving far more than 15 minutes.<BR/><BR/>"It would be much more sensible to improve the current Amtrak line, with a much lower cost and higher utilization."<BR/><BR/>I support upgrading the current Amtrak line if only because HSR won't serve beachfront communities like Oceanside. On the LOSSAN Corridor HSR is only going as far south as Irvine.<BR/><BR/>Of course, upgrading the Surf Line has its difficulties too. First, San Juan Capistrano is a single track bottleneck that doesn't have much room for expansion. Second, beachfront NIMBYs would probably fight any attempt to speed up the Surfliner and electrify the route. Third, the curvy section through the canyon in Sorrento Valley (I think that's where it is) will have to be bypassed.<BR/><BR/>I support doing all these things, but it isn't going to be cheap.<BR/><BR/>"rent a car to reach his destination (you need a car in LA, you know?)."<BR/><BR/>Depends on where this Fresnan is going. Mass transit in LA probably won't be the same in 2020 or 2030 as it is now. In the last 15 years incredible strides have been made to expand LA's rail system.<BR/><BR/>"Do you honestly think that the HSR train tickets will be cheaper than cars or planes?" <BR/><BR/>Nobody believes the high speed train will be cheaper than cars. However, they could be cheaper than plane tickets. That's the model in South Korea.<BR/><BR/>"or where gasoline is only $2.15/gal. (and not $9/gal. like in Europe)?"<BR/><BR/>It won't be $2.15 forever. Why wait for it to skyrocket to unaffordable levels to do something about it? Do you remember what happened in Georgia last Summer? On top of already high gas prices there were gasoline shortages, which crippled the ability of commuters to get to work. Because of the horrible mass transit network there were few alternatives.<BR/><BR/>"Or where freeways are truly free (no tolls)?"<BR/><BR/>You forget the costs of congestion.<BR/><BR/>"Think about it. Would you take a train from LA to SF for $200 r/t or would you rather take Virgin America for $115, even assuming similar travel times?"<BR/><BR/>The way things are going we might be able to take a Virgin train from LA-SF.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79997593823970775622009-03-11T16:25:00.000-07:002009-03-11T16:25:00.000-07:00I think that in the time before the LA-SD is even ...I think that in the time before the LA-SD is even ready to be considered, the Amtrak service should increase the speed of it's train service to/from LA.<BR/><BR/>Rafael - <BR/>What will it take to raise the speed of the Pacific Surfliner? Can the current Amtrak equipment reach 100+mph speeds or will they have to completely replace the trains with faster DMUs? Will the LAUS through tracks for Amtrak be done before ~2018 when the topic of the LA-SD HSR line comes back up for planning? That should speed up the trip by at least a couple of minutes.Alex M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04082494097195214427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-31464547311010384772009-03-11T16:14:00.000-07:002009-03-11T16:14:00.000-07:00Why so much waste of energy and bytes to discuss p...Why so much waste of energy and bytes to discuss possible routes for a line (SD-LA) that has no value and probably will never be built? Building in such dense area will be very expensive due to high land cost. And for what? To save 15 min. to those who want to travel from SD to LA on an expensive HSR train? It would be much more sensible to improve the current Amtrak line, with a much lower cost and higher utilization. Build the HSR where it really makes sense: in the North East, where there are big cities, densely built, with urban transit infrastructure in place. Why would a Fresnan take a train to LA? Take a taxi for 20-30 min. to get to a station downtown Fresno, ride a train for 90 min, get to LA, rent a car to reach his destination (you need a car in LA, you know?). In the end it will be much faster and cheaper to drive from Fresno to LA (door to door), as people do now. Public money should be used to improve transit in the congested metro areas, with a much higher impact on environment and traffic, not on these pipe dreams that benefit only those few (mainly business travellers) who can afford these high speed trains. Do you honestly think that the HSR train tickets will be cheaper than cars or planes? Try and take a TGV, a AVE or ICE train in Europe and see if the prices are the same as the ones on the CHSRA website for similar distances. They're much higher than what advertised, but in Europe HSR is still competitive because airfares are higher than in the US and gasoline and freeway tolls prohibitively expensive. But could they be competitive here? Where a plane ticket SFO-LAX is only $115 round trip on Virgin America? or where gasoline is only $2.15/gal. (and not $9/gal. like in Europe)? Or where freeways are truly free (no tolls)? Think about it. Would you take a train from LA to SF for $200 r/t or would you rather take Virgin America for $115, even assuming similar travel times? And don't tell me that you believe that it will cost only $55. Similar distances in Europe don't cost less than 75 Euros (one way)!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52618670489395013712009-03-11T15:34:00.000-07:002009-03-11T15:34:00.000-07:00The BNSF route east of Fullerton uses the Santa An...The BNSF route east of Fullerton uses the Santa Ana Canyon, paralleling the Santa Ana River. That corridor is already pretty well built up. I'd be all in favor of ripping out those idiotic 91 Express Lanes and building tracks down the middle of the freeway, but that would still be somewhat twisty, at least between Weir Canyon Road and the 71 interchange.<BR/><BR/>I think BruceMcF is right - this LA-SD route question is going to be an open question until after 2018, when after seeing how awesome the LA-SF train is, enthusiasm along the LA-SD route will rise and people will demand it get built.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-27864817652933600682009-03-11T13:58:00.000-07:002009-03-11T13:58:00.000-07:00@ Robert -IIRC, CHSRA was looking of cutting over ...@ Robert -<BR/><BR/>IIRC, CHSRA was looking of cutting over either just north of the Miramar base or else through it (running around the runways, presumably). SR 52 was never considered as a stop is planned in University City near La Jolla.<BR/><BR/>@ Alex M -<BR/><BR/>I've never been near Corona, so I can only tell you what I see on the map. The worst of the squiggles might have to be bypassed, otherwise, the trains will probably run at less than 125mph anyhow. BNSF runs through a golf course in one location, so NIMBY uproar over at least that is pretty much guaranteed if rail traffic volume is increased.<BR/><BR/>At this point, CHSRA would anyhow not entertain the notion. They've finally got an approved program EIR/EIS and they now want to find a way to implement that. Yeson1a's idea is a good one, but it comes a few years too late. It's now an alternative only if running past Ontario proves impossible or just plain too expensive (is there such a thing in California infrastructure planning?)<BR/><BR/>The thorniest issue could be just south-east of Redondo Junction, because UPRR is unlikely to offer up any of its ROW. Leveraging the LA Union Station - Fullerton bit from phase I for LA - San Diego would make life a lot easier for CHSRA. Riverside and San Bernardino would then be on a potential future spur out to Las Vegas.<BR/><BR/>@ not in my median -<BR/><BR/>lol, commenter name of the week award right there :-)<BR/><BR/>CHSRA may yet choose to run tracks next to the freeways rather than in the medians, at least in the twistier bits. Gradients might also be an issue, I believe freeway designs allow up to 6%, which would be too much for HSR except for very short sections that can be climbed with the help of plenty of momentum. 3.5-4% is sustainable for longer distances and usually considered the maximum for HSR alignments.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51955780903432580112009-03-11T13:09:00.000-07:002009-03-11T13:09:00.000-07:00Regarding: "Also seems to me that lovely as old Sa...Regarding: "<I>Also seems to me that lovely as old Santa Fe Depot is, it isn't a very sensible spot for a terminus. Good access to Amtrak and SD Trolley, obviously, but bad automobile and air connections. A Lindbergh terminal makes much more sense.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Note that the HSR station separation constraint doesn't apply to the terminus, as there are no through passengers to lose time from stops a couple of miles apart. Since it adds a second transfer-free Trolley line and Ferry to the mix of freeway, trolley line, and rental cars at a Lindbergh Transport Interchange, and seems like it would be cheaper than the "people mover" that keeps getting tossed out whenever there is a similar gap to cover elsewhere, what's the downside?<BR/><BR/>As far as getting the train that far, good luck ... getting bullet train alignments will be ever so much easier once your California system is up and running.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79572631364427687682009-03-11T12:08:00.000-07:002009-03-11T12:08:00.000-07:00My first hand experience might be limited to Europ...My first hand experience might be limited to European systems, but I have never seen HSR built in the median of a freeway. Yes, alongside, but never in the median. <BR/><BR/>BART, which is a metro, is in the median of freeways where the freeway was built or rebuilt to accommodate the train. Where the freeway came first, I-280 in San Francisco and Daly City, it was built alongside.<BR/><BR/>An elevated HSR that passes over overcrossings is probably never going to happen. Alongside is easier to fit in and will have less of an impact on the adjacent uses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-79513914378909763562009-03-11T11:35:00.000-07:002009-03-11T11:35:00.000-07:00I say screw going all the way out to Ontario, the ...I say screw going all the way out to Ontario, the CHSRA is going to run into mountains of issues with UPRR. I think HSR should just use the BNSF "91" ROW all the way to Fullerton and then split, one way to Anaheim/Irvine and the other going east with an intermodal station at Corona with a shuttle or extended Metrolink line up to Ontario along I-15. I think the benefits of sticking with BNSF for the majority of the route will be large. CHSRA will be able to negotiate the entire route at once without having to hammer out many long contracts with different freight operators. <BR/><BR/>Rafael - <BR/>If the BNSF "91" ROW is used and splits at Fullerton, will the twisty twisty bits east of there negate any time benefits you would have by using a shorter overall route? Would it be possible to run an aerial there (by traveling the route on Google Maps it looks like there isn't enough room to straighten it) to get past the worst parts? Will HSR lose too big of a source of ridership to realistically skip Ontario and that area to the North?Alex M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04082494097195214427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-69434278105448180372009-03-11T10:45:00.000-07:002009-03-11T10:45:00.000-07:00Regarding cutting over from I-15 to I-5 in San Die...Regarding cutting over from I-15 to I-5 in San Diego, in my naive opinion using the I-8 is not feasible. It is very heavily used, doesn't have much a center median, and the sides are closely lined with commerce on both sides. The interchange between I-8 and I-5 is already very cluttered with ramps and the turn from west to south is sharper than 90 degrees as the I-5 turns from southbound to southeast bound as it crosses the I-8. Seems to me the better option is to follow the SR-52 which has loads of median, and the entire ROW from 15 to 5 is fairly undeveloped.<BR/><BR/>Also seems to me that lovely as old Santa Fe Depot is, it isn't a very sensible spot for a terminus. Good access to Amtrak and SD Trolley, obviously, but bad automobile and air connections. A Lindbergh terminal makes much more sense.<BR/><BR/>Another alternative would be to follow I-5 all the way to its terminus at I-5, which is relatively near Petco, Convention Center, etc - if the proposal to head further south to the border, train yards etc were to be pursued, this would make sense. Could be integrated with some express trolley service back up to Santa Fe and the airport. Trolley will be an excellent airport option when/if they relocate the terminals as porposed.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00787162300960892738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35709632557338622692009-03-11T10:22:00.000-07:002009-03-11T10:22:00.000-07:00The flip side with Phoenix is that you can have pe...The flip side with Phoenix is that you can have perfectly straight track running in the I-10 median. That means the trains can run at 350 km/h from right outside Phoenix proper almost to Colton.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57800840318517616692009-03-11T10:21:00.000-07:002009-03-11T10:21:00.000-07:00the 2 parallel tracks have to be farther away from...<I>the 2 parallel tracks have to be farther away from each other than in regular lines, at least 4 mt. (or 13ft).</I><BR/><BR/>Note, this isn't Europe. The California Public Utilities Commission requires 14 ft spacing for <I>any</I> railroad track.<BR/><BR/><I>Caltrain picked locomotives with a moderately optimized nose shape for its "baby bullet" express service</I><BR/><BR/>All for show! Baby bullets are routinely operated using the old gallery trains, which have the aerodynamic qualities of a barn door.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66537565068426137312009-03-11T10:07:00.000-07:002009-03-11T10:07:00.000-07:00@ Roberto G -CHSRA is planning to run its trains a...@ Roberto G -<BR/><BR/>CHSRA is planning to run its trains at up to 100-150mph in the Inland Empire and south of Escondido. Only the section between Moreno Valley and Escondido will see speeds of 150-200mph. See page 21 <A HREF="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/images/chsr/20080529154712_Ch_4_Costs.pdf" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/>That's quite a bit faster than e.g. BART, which tops out at 79mph.<BR/><BR/>Your point is well taken: trains passing each other at relative speeds of 300mph or more do have aerodynamic interactions when their bow waves collide. The resulting lateral forces can cause sway, potentially destabilizing the nose of the train.<BR/><BR/>The aerodynamic forces with a wall to one side and free air to the other are also not symmetrical, which is why HSR engineers prefer boring two single-track tunnels to boring one dual-track tunnel with a larger diameter. Civil and mechanical/aerospace engineers working on HSR use computational fluid dynamics to fine-tune their designs.<BR/><BR/>Caltrain picked locomotives with a <A HREF="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/01/judging-train-by-its-nose.html" REL="nofollow">moderately optimized nose shape</A> for its "baby bullet" express service, which has confused the laymen into thinking that 79mph was actually high speed. Not even close.<BR/><BR/>Spanish (<A HREF="http://www1.messe-berlin.de/vip8_1/website/MesseBerlin/htdocs/Bilder_upload/Neuheitenreport/8717.jpg" REL="nofollow">Talgo 350</A>) and Japanese (<A HREF="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2078500478_52d9ec46e2.jpg?v=1197532704" REL="nofollow">700 series</A>, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E5_Series_Shinkansen" REL="nofollow">E5</A>) train designers mitigate the risk with duck-bill shapes for the noses of their trains. They're not exactly pretty, but they are effective.<BR/><BR/>If necessary, one way to mitigate aerodynamic interactions between two trains and also between trains and the much lighter cars and trucks in the adjacent traffic lanes would to install three tall walls, preferably made of a translucent material (e.g. perforated perspex) and connected to one another via the support structure for the OCS plus additional braces. There's no need for noise mitigation in the middle of a freeway, but lateral gusts of wind could be a safety issue.<BR/><BR/>If the trains run on an elevated alignment because the median lanes are already in use for vehicle traffic, only interactions between the trains need to be considered. There's a limit to how wide such structures can be, though, because even HSR trains are quite heavy and in that context, more exposed to natural winds.<BR/><BR/>Tracks running underneath traffic lanes in covered trenches probably present the least challenges on the aerodynamic front, just more drag. However, there's always the issue of evacuation routes and rescue access in underground alignments in the event of a fire or derailment. In addition, very long tunnels can give drivers "tunnel vision", a disorienting phenomenon that Eurostar addresses by using a smaller windscreen.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19037565166871599702009-03-11T09:05:00.000-07:002009-03-11T09:05:00.000-07:00To those proposing to have the HSR run on the free...To those proposing to have the HSR run on the freeway median I'd like to point out that HSR lines need more space than other lines. I read in an Italian news article, regarding the recently open HSR line Milan-Bologna, that the 2 parallel tracks have to be farther away from each other than in regular lines, at least 4 mt. (or 13ft). Also you can't have walls on the sides of the tracks that are too close to the running trains. Once you take everything into consideration you basically need a strip over 20 mt. (66 ft) wide to build a HSR line. I'm not sure if the median available there may be that wide. If not, the only alternative is to have trains run at lower speeds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15942785429957882862009-03-11T06:31:00.000-07:002009-03-11T06:31:00.000-07:00@ Sin City Lover -how about we build at least the ...@ Sin City Lover -<BR/><BR/>how about we build at least the SF-LA-Anaheim starter line of the California system first and then figure out how to pay for a link to Vegas?<BR/><BR/>An electrified steel wheels spur off the starter line from Mojave via Barstow would be the shortest and simplest solution. No need for a second crossing of the San Andreas fault, no interference for freight out of LA/LB via Cajon Pass, relief for McCurran via access to most of CA + access to Palmdale airport.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-31304954737816437862009-03-11T06:19:00.000-07:002009-03-11T06:19:00.000-07:00We really need a line to Las Vegas. Let's make it...We really need a line to Las Vegas. Let's make it as easy as possible for Californians to support the state of Nevada.<BR/><BR/>Why not a spur from Bakersfield towards the east to hook up with the Anaheim to Las Vegas line, so that we up here in the SF area can enjoy high speed train travel to Sin City.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if they would somehow allow casions on the train cars?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-14121529634115478782009-03-11T04:45:00.000-07:002009-03-11T04:45:00.000-07:00@ jim -Colton-Phoenix is 320 miles. Not exactly cl...@ jim -<BR/><BR/>Colton-Phoenix is 320 miles. Not exactly close, especially since there aren't a lot of towns in-between and none of them sizable: Palm Springs/Cathedral City, Indio, Blythe. That's it basically. And I doubt any of them have plans for transit-oriented development and aggressive water conservation. Phoenix just opened its first light rail line, otherwise it's sprawl/foreclosure central.<BR/><BR/>I'm guessing we'll see a spur out to Vegas long before we see one to Phoenix.<BR/><BR/>@ yeson1a -<BR/><BR/>iff BNSF is amenable to that, staying essentially on their ROW through Corona might be an idea. It might even make sense to run tracks up from Orange so that a subset of LA-SD trains can swing by Anaheim. However, the BNSF ROW gets pretty twisty east of Fullerton.<BR/><BR/>Plus, all that does nothing for Ontario, but that might be survivable if Palmdale is built out as an effective relief airport for LA.<BR/><BR/>That <A HREF="http://www.tudelft.nl/live/pagina.jsp?id=358b48e9-f688-4a5d-a303-4c963aa42663&lang=en" REL="nofollow">sexy superbus</A> could provide direct airport service for OC destinations other than ARTIC, e.g. nearby Disneyland. Only the stretch up hwy 57 and over to Ontario on I-10 or hwy 60 would be dedicated high-speed (90-150mph) lanes in the median or else on an aerial. That bus requires a lot less vertical clearance than a train with OCS.<BR/><BR/>If successful, high-speed lanes for the bus could be run east to Colton and along I-215 between SBD and Riverside and south to John Wayne airport to expand this regional service.<BR/><BR/>Forks and last mile connectors would always be at regular speeds on ordinary, existing roads, e.g. access to Ontario airport terminals, Disneyland, UC Riverside and UC Irvine/Newport Beach/Huntington Beach.<BR/><BR/>Instead of a true battery electric drivetrain (cp. <A HREF="http://www.teslamotors.com/" REL="nofollow">Tesla Motors</A>), the beast could run on a <A HREF="http://www.oorjaprotonics.com/index.php" REL="nofollow">direct methanol fuel cell</A>, an <A HREF="http://www.apta.com/research/info/briefings/documents/dovalina.pdf" REL="nofollow">LNG</A> spark ignition engine<BR/><BR/>Even a refined diesel engine with suitable emissions controls (cp. <A HREF="http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/13/detroit-2008-audi-unleashes-its-diesel-monster-the-r8-v12-tdi/" REL="nofollow">Audi's V12 diesel</A>, derived from their Le Mans endurance racer) might be fine. It wouldn't last as long as a regular HDV diesel but so what?<BR/><BR/>You can buy a fleet of buses and replacement engines for the cost of running HSR/maglev tracks or even more lane-miles for personal cars. Most folks in OC wouldn't be caught dead on a bus unless it both looks and sounds a whole lot sexier than their own set of wheels.<BR/><BR/>Often, a high speed train is the best answer. But not always.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-50024570397061555592009-03-10T22:46:00.000-07:002009-03-10T22:46:00.000-07:00the HSR site route map and visuals show stations s...the HSR site route map and visuals show stations specifically at Industry via 1-10 and ontario airport just north of the terminal across the parking lot in the existing freight row at archibald avenue ( between the airport and the 10 fwy, continuing further east to about colton-215 then south on the 215 with a stop at UC RIverside, and Murrieta.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38783735390528679322009-03-10T22:29:00.000-07:002009-03-10T22:29:00.000-07:00What about riverside though - ontario and riversid...What about riverside though - ontario and riverside shouldn't be left out...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-66775524749587508632009-03-10T21:33:00.000-07:002009-03-10T21:33:00.000-07:00This whole project needs to be kept simple as some...This whole project needs to be kept simple as someone said KISS.<BR/>If its outrageous to go thru Ontario ect then it needs to stay on the HSR ROW till Fullerton then use a heavy rebuilt BNSF to I-15 and head south from there.The LA Gold line can serve Ontario Airport<BR/>just as well if not betterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-51502485397778362852009-03-10T20:18:00.000-07:002009-03-10T20:18:00.000-07:00you know after looking at the map - I never realiz...you know after looking at the map - I never realized how close phoenix actually is. I say forget san diego, since they are just gonna fight it the whole time anyway, and take it out the 10 ll the way - id much rather have access to palm springs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com