tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post6448542157623955932..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: The View From the ValleyRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76491702391038328022009-03-10T18:31:00.000-07:002009-03-10T18:31:00.000-07:00@ wu-ming -now that their website is back up again...@ wu-ming -<BR/><BR/>now that their website is back up again, you may want to check out a couple of reports by<BR/><A HREF="http://www.dot.ca.gov/rail/go/dor/division-of-rail-reports/index.cfm" REL="nofollow">Caltrans Division of Rail</A>.<BR/><BR/>In particular, the San Joaquin Corridor Strategic Plan (just a DRAFT right now) and the Rights of Way study. Lots of meaty goodness in there, including a two-part map of bike path networks in California.<BR/><BR/>In addition to the usual suspects (Bay Area, San Diego), the cities of Stockton, Fresno, Bakersfield and south-west San Bernadino county have relatively well-developed networks. That said, the information isn't perfect, for example the bike path along the Santa Ana river in OC isn't shown.<BR/><BR/>I've always argued that bicycle infrastructure - especially lanes/paths and parking - should be included in the concept of the HSR feeder. Many cities are the result of decades of sprawl and they can't increase population density overnight. That means transit service will be limited compared to Europe and, completely absent in many suburban areas.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, I think the relatively new phenomenon of folding electric bicycles is a perfect fit for train passengers, even at intercity distances - provided the weather is nice. You don't arrive at the station all sweaty, which other passengers will appreciate. Plus, you don't risk catching a cold because the A/C is on in the train.<BR/><BR/>On the outbound leg to your final destination, you can sweat to your heart's content, even in flat terrain, if you want a workout: just switch your assist motor into generator mode.<BR/><BR/>FEB's are doubly useful if they are small enough to fit underneath the seats in the train and there are courtesy electrical outlets to recharge the batteries in transit.<BR/><BR/>The state speed limit of 20mph doesn't sound like much. However, if you factor in that you usually have to wait for connecting transit, it often doesn't take the most direct route to near your destination and you have walk to reach it, riding an FEB sounds rather attractive by comparison.<BR/><BR/>The only downside is that California law restricts electric bicycles to persons 16 and older. No exception is made for younger children that are accompanied by an adult, something worth looking into.<BR/><BR/>An FEB also fits easily into the trunk of a car, boat or light aircraft. Again, the battery could in principle be recharged by the vehicle's generator, driven by the combustion engine.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-26735156918712640482009-03-10T00:55:00.000-07:002009-03-10T00:55:00.000-07:00fred - fresno has 500,000 people, and is the 5th l...fred - <BR/><BR/>fresno has 500,000 people, and is the 5th largest city in california. it isn't a small valley town by any measure. it's as silly as the deniers calling the peninsula cities quaint villages. one could be a jerk and all it an inconsequential place, but not a small one. the northern sacramento valley's fairly sparse north of sac, but the san joaquin has a lot of people, nearly all of them along 99.<BR/><BR/>as a resident of the central valley for most of my life, i don't think it's possible to overstate the deep and abiding sense of marginality you get here, and concern for any kind of state investment. HSR was a brilliant idea in terms of tying the state together, and people here can tell it'll be a good deal for them. i just hope that this damn line gets built ASAP so that the extension to sac gets built soon. while i wouldn't cry over a switch to altamont for purely regional reasons, anything that delays the overall project is still a bad idea, because it delays me getting that sac extension.<BR/><BR/>additionally, while summer can cook you, the valley's flatness makes it exceptionally suitable for bicycle-to-train commutes. all you need is a decent bike lane infrastructure (admittedly a lot easier when done when originally laying down streets) and some shade trees, and you can cruise to the station. i've dine this several times when catching the capitol corridor to the bay area from davis.<BR/><BR/>requiring bike lane access and bike parking when designing the stations and surrounding denser urban districts, esp. in the valley and other flat places, could take a lot of pollution out of the air.無名 - wu minghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01078479850722724885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-36338234734857823932009-03-09T23:18:00.000-07:002009-03-09T23:18:00.000-07:00Also, Bakersfield isn't on Interstate 5.elflingAlso, Bakersfield isn't on Interstate 5.<BR/><BR/>elflingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38384988099388359952009-03-09T23:17:00.000-07:002009-03-09T23:17:00.000-07:00Fresno hasn't been a small town for decades.elflin...Fresno hasn't been a small town for decades.<BR/><BR/>elflingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-22567206504450416192009-03-09T20:40:00.000-07:002009-03-09T20:40:00.000-07:00The entire point of this post, Fred, is to explain...The entire point of this post, Fred, is to explain why bypassing the major cities on the Highway 99 corridor is not a desirable or politically viable option. If that were pursued, Central Valley legislators and likely voters as well would join to kill the project entirely.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-589989712652769372009-03-09T18:32:00.001-07:002009-03-09T18:32:00.001-07:00http://www.railamerica.com/Files/SJVR/SJVR2.pdfhttp://www.railamerica.com/Files/SJVR/SJVR2.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-22112627826449380982009-03-09T18:32:00.000-07:002009-03-09T18:32:00.000-07:00or here's a very good map - see the options. I s...or here's a very good map - see the options. I suppose even sjvr might be up for it for a price but it probably wasn't considered because the big railraods really want it - they just want to play like they don't so then can work it. you know it's all so sordid really.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40696633573823908822009-03-09T18:26:00.000-07:002009-03-09T18:26:00.000-07:00map - bnsf with up and sjvrhttp://bnsf.com/tools/r...map - bnsf with up and sjvr<BR/><BR/>http://bnsf.com/tools/reference/division_maps/div_ca.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-15919297895892408952009-03-09T18:20:00.000-07:002009-03-09T18:20:00.000-07:00this was from 2004 - I wonder how much of it is st...this was from 2004 - I wonder how much of it is still relevant: <BR/><BR/>The Authority staff recommends utilizing both the Union Pacific Railroad (UPRR) and Burlington Northern Santa Fe (BNSF) right-of-ways for high-speed trains in the Central Valley.<BR/><BR/>The Sacramento Rail Depot in downtown Sacramento is recommended for the high-speed train's northern terminus. From Sacramento to Stockton, Authority staff recommends the (UPRR) alignment bypassing Lodi on the Central California Track and reconnecting to UPRR to serve the Stockton Downtown ACE station site.<BR/><BR/>From Stockton to Merced, Authority staff recommends BNSF alignment because it avoids most of the urban areas between Stockton and Merced; is less costly; has fewer environmental impacts; and serves the Castle Air Force Base. Potential station locations include Amtrak Briggsmore in Modesto and Castle Air Force Base, allowing access to the developing U.C. Merced campus.<BR/><BR/>Continuing from Merced to Fresno along the BNSF is the Authority staff's preferred option. This alignment includes transitions to the UPRR to serve Fresno and Merced. The Downtown Fresno station is recommended because it has high connectivity and accessibility. A direct route through Fresno rather than an express loop outside of the city is recommended because it has fewer environmental impacts; is less costly; and has better access.<BR/><BR/>Authority staff recommends the BNSF alignment between Fresno and Bakersfield. Amtrak intercity rail service will serve Kings County and Tulare County to the high-speed train system. The proposed station location is Downtown Bakersfield Truxton stationAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39145192616034208782009-03-09T17:57:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:57:00.000-07:00we will pay and they will play.we will pay and they will play.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-8816845496737971882009-03-09T17:56:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:56:00.000-07:00There's no point in building it if it goes down 15...There's no point in building it if it goes down 15 it wouldn't serve any purpose. If all your doing is serving the bay to la market then you may as well leave it to the airlines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-75044373807714211092009-03-09T17:47:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:47:00.000-07:00If UP and BNSF don't play ball, I-5 and its easily...If UP and BNSF don't play ball, I-5 and its easily acquired ROW may become the only option.<BR/><BR/>Never say never...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13817634718567256042009-03-09T17:34:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:34:00.000-07:00The train isn't going down I-5 at all ever so for...The train isn't going down I-5 at all ever so forget it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-49301173911294641422009-03-09T17:32:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:32:00.000-07:00My hypothetical I-5 corridor would have no stops b...My hypothetical I-5 corridor would have no stops between Stockton and Bakersfield. The whole point is to blast over the nothingness that is Kettleman City. It's simply a shorter route between the population centers too.<BR/><BR/>Aaron, do you think Fresno, Madera, Visalia, and other small CV towns don't have NIMBYs? They certainly do. They will probably welcome the project as badly needed capital investment in a depressed area, but they will then seek speed and noise limits once built. This happens with airport NIMBYs all the time: people move near airports and then seek noise and flight restrictions. The beauty of the I-5 corridor is the lack of NIMBYs.<BR/><BR/>The current CHSRA plan has several flaws, but the passage of the bond doesn't correct those flaws.<BR/><BR/>As for railroad law -- the foundation of American corporate and regulatory law -- eminent domain cannot be applied to legacy railroads. This was established in a SC case over 100 years ago, and it will take another SC case to overturn it. UP doesn't have to bend to the public will at all, but they may accept a lot of cash eventually. BNSF may be more willing but not necessarily any cheaper. UP and BNSF don't have to play at all if they so decide...<BR/><BR/>I can't imagine that it is hard to acquire ROW along the I-5.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-48216918369690918942009-03-09T17:22:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:22:00.000-07:00to get back on topic id say put the station in wh...to get back on topic id say put the station in which ever town wants it more. Instead of "can our train please go this way" It should be "if you want it then beg for it" so to speak. If Visalia wants it then they will outdo Hanford or any other location trying to get it. Same goes for UP verusu BN, whichever one wants it - and the bennies it will provide in the way of federal dollars, is the one who will have to work hardest to get it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-49614050091952972082009-03-09T17:16:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:16:00.000-07:00I hope they stick with BNSF thru the Valley..there...I hope they stick with BNSF thru the Valley..there will be fighting <BR/>with the UP on some other key system points.Fresno should be ok with UPRR as its wide thru town on UP The BNSF is not a good option passing thru town as its all<BR/>new housing along the routeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90365733411819386292009-03-09T17:10:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:10:00.000-07:00there is so much that goes on behind the scenes wi...there is so much that goes on behind the scenes with RRB and FRA I'm sure they are no different than FDA and DEA when it comes to how decisions are made. So many things come into play. Think of for instance, what would happen the retirement fund if amtrak shut down and the 15000 plus employees stopped paying into the fund. (managers, employees, freights and passenger railroads all depend on this fund) that's a lot a stake. UP just got its sac san jose line upgraded on amtraks dime at least paritally. I mean the freights especilly up in particular will run their trains on until they are on dirt before they'll pay for new track and ballast. and forget about double tracking. they are too busy pulling out double track because it costs more to maintain. so the only way double track comes back is when amtrak needs to have it. its 100 percent pure big money and politics and has little do with anything else. Now granted, now that everyday folks are taking an interest there will be pressure to get stuff done but rest assured nothing will get done without first making sure interests are protected. and of course I fully support this method. its slow but necessary. again FRA ? think FDA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71584266698593290632009-03-09T17:01:00.000-07:002009-03-09T17:01:00.000-07:00@aaron actually that does happen already -- some...@aaron actually that does happen already -- some of the money the feds give amtrak finds it way to improving the private freight rr row - its a l a big bunch of political shenanigans and posturing that goes on. you know what they say about making sausage... that you'd rather not know...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-12144487310565476792009-03-09T15:39:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:39:00.000-07:00@Jim: Thanks. Growing up in Arizona I was familia...@Jim: Thanks. Growing up in Arizona I was familiar with the original agreements regarding granting surrounding land, but I didn't know that those were still the basis for current operations.<BR/><BR/>It's kind of a shame, you would think that a smart company would be open to passenger rail services in exchange for some consideration in terms of perhaps a joint maintenance agreement, upgrades to the rail lines, etc. There's ways to sweeten the deal that won't cost CAHSR a great deal of cash but will still provide incentive to freight railroads.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14186947428645370594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-84065390144643359872009-03-09T15:32:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:32:00.000-07:00UP is hostile to rail service. BN is cooperative....UP is hostile to rail service. BN is cooperative. The railroads own the land and it is private property not public - thus the term "trespasser" for the dummies who get run over by trains. Of course, it was the feds who original granted a crapload of free land to the railroads originally but so much for gratitude. I say go with BN just because they will amke a better partner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-22159743927809402002009-03-09T15:26:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:26:00.000-07:00@Robert: I'm not an expert on these things, but wh...@Robert: I'm not an expert on these things, but what is the legal status of these right-of-ways? Public roads are just that - public roads, for all to use. Are freight railroad tracks outright owned by freight companies? Is there any legal requirement for them to co-operate with competitors or passenger rail entities? Perhaps requiring them to agree to reasonable requests for usage? It seems that the current situation allows for monopolistic practices, which was supposed to be outlawed a century ago or so ;p.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, if the freight companies own and maintain the tracks, they should be able to enjoy the rewards insomuch as federal law permits, but it seems that UP in particular has a certain hostility to passenger rail service that goes beyond mere concern about future viability of its trackage investments.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14186947428645370594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-31106418409605418172009-03-09T15:18:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:18:00.000-07:00The BNSF line only deviates from the general vicin...The BNSF line only deviates from the general vicinity of the Highway 99 corridor in the Visalia area, where it serves Hanford instead. Since we're not talking about putting a stop at Tulare or Delano, I don't really see this as being a problem.<BR/><BR/>I've always thought federal pressure ought to be brought to bear on UP regarding their stance on ROW sharing. But if that's not going to happen, the BNSF line through the San Joaquin Valley should be acceptable.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25981584566310288982009-03-09T15:13:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:13:00.000-07:00I only mentioned the Prop 8 stuff to explain to pe...I only mentioned the Prop 8 stuff to explain to people what I was doing in Fresno this weekend. This blog is SO not the appropriate place to have a discussion about that issue. If anyone wants to, my email is my last name at gmail.Robert Cruickshankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-28014518327207420982009-03-09T15:09:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:09:00.000-07:00I 5 was studied eons ago and discarded. Since whe...I 5 was studied eons ago and discarded. Since when did this become an issue? the whole point of hsr is that the central valley cities will be the fastest growing part of the state in the near future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-42870113775275715742009-03-09T15:07:00.000-07:002009-03-09T15:07:00.000-07:00Having driven Hwy 99 fairly recently and having ri...Having driven Hwy 99 fairly recently and having ridden the San Joaquins and watched people getting on and off at the various stops, it's clear to me that HSR absolutely should follow the 99 route and tap into Fresno et al.<BR/><BR/>Besides, while I have no need or desire to visit Kettleman City by rail, I do in fact have regular interest in traveling to Fresno, Visalia, etc. We have three CSU campuses and one UC along the route, compared to zero along I-5. Putting HSR down 5 would encourage growth there, which I think would be a big negative for the state in terms of water resources and smart planning. The communities are already built along 99. It shouldn't be a radical idea to take the trains to where the people already are.<BR/><BR/>elflingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com