tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post6899865840681970268..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Judge Kenny: Planning Work Can ContinueRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-75574220965544745912009-10-10T17:37:10.275-07:002009-10-10T17:37:10.275-07:00Uncle Walter said...
"Dangnabbit. Where did m...Uncle Walter said...<br />"<i>Dangnabbit. Where did my blue pills go?!</i>"<br /><br />C'mon, Walt, be a sport - take the red pill instead.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-16822339197195090412009-10-10T17:03:57.685-07:002009-10-10T17:03:57.685-07:00No. You must be thinking of Prop 58 and 60, and no...<i>No. You must be thinking of Prop 58 and 60, and not all CA counties allow it.</i><br /><br />Prop 60 is exactly what I was thinking of, and it applies in both San Mateo and Santa Clara counties, which are the only two relevant counties in this discussion!<br /><br /><i>Besides, it's not just the tax, but the fact that houses probably cost 10x what they did when they bought their place.</i><br /><br />Um, which part of "market value" do you not understand? The state wouldn't pay them their Prop 13 assessed value...it would pay them the market value (and probably somewhat more, to induce them to sell voluntarily rather than exercising ED). By definition, it would be enough to buy other similar homes in similar neighborhoods. Or they could just cash out and move somewhere cheaper, if they so pleased.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41108679320031743112009-10-09T21:39:24.956-07:002009-10-09T21:39:24.956-07:00Anon: CHSRA would be paying current market value, ...Anon: CHSRA would be paying current market value, which is based on how much similar properties are selling for now, not on how much the property cost thirty years ago.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-1528607982235648562009-10-09T20:35:00.192-07:002009-10-09T20:35:00.192-07:00"doesn't Prop 13 allow long-term homeowne..."doesn't Prop 13 allow long-term homeowners to transfer their tax basis to a different property of equal or lesser market value in the same area?? That's what I've been told, by people who should know..."<br /><br />No. You must be thinking of Prop 58 and 60, and not all CA counties allow it.<br /><br />Besides, it's not just the tax, but the fact that houses probably cost 10x what they did when they bought their place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85677242420426243702009-10-09T20:19:07.664-07:002009-10-09T20:19:07.664-07:00Without going into the merits of Prop 13, it has t...<i>Without going into the merits of Prop 13, it has the effect of handcuffing long-term homeowners – especially fixed incomers - to their current properties.</i><br /><br />Paging Joe Simitian: there ought to be a law... to allow residents displaced by eminent domain to keep the same property tax rate in their new residence.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-83402138100383846762009-10-09T17:56:01.873-07:002009-10-09T17:56:01.873-07:00O where O where is all the "bad news" po...O where O where is all the "bad news" post/links from the nimbys and others about todays ruling??<br />quite arent they...heehheeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33545055621692411102009-10-09T17:47:18.255-07:002009-10-09T17:47:18.255-07:00In other words, a long-term homeowner who gets dis...<i>In other words, a long-term homeowner who gets displaced will have to pay an additional $10K in taxes per year if they buy a new property of equal value.</i><br /><br />Ummm, doesn't Prop 13 allow long-term homeowners to transfer their tax basis to a different property of equal or lesser market value in the same area?? That's what I've been told, by people who should know...mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-233617552105131582009-10-09T17:42:09.877-07:002009-10-09T17:42:09.877-07:00Board Watcher, the problem of property taxes in Ca...Board Watcher, the problem of property taxes in California is similar to rent in New York, where rent controls are only in place for people who have lived in the same apartment since the 1970s.<br /><br />I'm not sure about California law, but in New York, whenever the government demolishes a building it needs to not only compensate the owner, but find comparable housing for the tenants. If the new housing is more expensive due to lapsed rent control, the government needs to pay the difference for three years.<br /><br />Such a scheme could work for the Peninsula, with CHSRA paying the difference in property taxes for a few years. Using your numbers and assuming a five-year program, it works out to $50,000 per house, which is much less than the cost of eminent domain in the first place.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-41476917751062149922009-10-09T17:01:50.444-07:002009-10-09T17:01:50.444-07:00Board Watcher said: For some unknown number of pr...Board Watcher said: <i>For some unknown number of property owners, they’ll be left with no house, no mortgage AND no possibility of re-buying in the area.</i><br /><br />It's not my intention to be callous or cavalier. Are you aware of the <a href="http://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/olr/htm/2000-r-0836.htm" rel="nofollow">Replacement Housing Program</a>? "This program allows individuals who are at least 55 years old to sell their residence, buy a new one of equal or lesser value, and transfer the old residence's assessed value to the new home. The new home must be purchased within two years of selling the previous one and must be in the same county. The program is available to anyone 55 and older, regardless of income or wealth. "<br /><br />The Caltrain ROW is wide enough for most of the length of it. According to the CHSRA, very little land needs to be acquired. Of the little land that needs to be acquired, it is perhaps possible that there is a homeowner who might be unable to avail him or herself of the benefit of the Replacement Housing Program, but now we are talking about a very small number of people indeed. <br /><br />Furthermore, it seems to me that if someone has been a homeowner long enough that the difference in property taxes is a serious hit, that's a factor they ought to build into their negotiations when the CHSRA comes knocking.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-74091643213961821342009-10-09T16:40:15.037-07:002009-10-09T16:40:15.037-07:00"Sorry, but that’s a lazy way to defend your ..."Sorry, but that’s a lazy way to defend your HSR enthusiasm."<br /><br />What did you expect? This is a bunch of Californians who like to wallow in labels. Progressive. Repug. Things like that.<br /><br />Simple minds require simplification.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-81363361914007403632009-10-09T16:31:49.630-07:002009-10-09T16:31:49.630-07:00It's not as if the property owners are left wi...<i>It's not as if the property owners are left with a mortgage but no house. </i><br /><br />Take a closer look. For some unknown number of property owners, they’ll be left with no house, no mortgage AND no possibility of re-buying in the area. Without going into the merits of Prop 13, it has the effect of handcuffing long-term homeowners – especially fixed incomers - to their current properties. The range in yearly property taxes for equal value homes along the narrowest sections of the Caltrain ROW is at least $10K. In other words, a long-term homeowner who gets displaced will have to pay an additional $10K in taxes <i>per year</i> if they buy a new property of equal value. You can look this up using tools like Zillow. <br /><br />You guys are trying hard to depersonalize the train-vs-resident issues. Why? Are you afraid of what you might find if you took the time to understand? Call them NIMBYs because of a few people’s behavior and now it’s easy to hate them all. Sorry, but that’s a lazy way to defend your HSR enthusiasm.Board Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-9774473093880053192009-10-09T16:27:34.575-07:002009-10-09T16:27:34.575-07:00Dangnabbit. Where did my blue pills go?!Dangnabbit. Where did my blue pills go?!Uncle Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35036492836105784632009-10-09T16:12:34.193-07:002009-10-09T16:12:34.193-07:00Anonymous at 2:08, I don't care what your hand...Anonymous at 2:08, I don't care what your handle is, you can call yourself "Thomas Paine" or "Inigo Montoya" or "The Grand Poohbah of Jokey Handles"-- knock yourself out. <br /><br />As Peter said, there are a lot of potshots taken by anonymous posters, and often multiple anonymous posters in a single thread, and while *you* may know which anonymous comments are yours and which are not, the rest of us don't. And some threads really start to look like Uncle Walter went off his meds. <br /><br />So pick a handle, anything, to make the discussion just a bit more coherent for the rest of us.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25138016799960802082009-10-09T15:10:57.929-07:002009-10-09T15:10:57.929-07:00The SNCF boasts of never resorting to forced expro...The SNCF boasts of never resorting to forced expropriation. I don't know about the US, but in France it is very impopular. It always leads to litigation. Judgments are then appealled, which may delay a project for years. Local politicians will side with the "victims" and so will the local media with reports on the nice homes that the technocrats intend to bulldoze.<br />That's why the SNCF prefers win-win deals. Owners win by being over-compensated, the SNCF wins by not having its projects delayed.<br />There is one case where this didn't work: the Aix-Nice TGV spur. There was such a campaign against the "traitors" ready to sell land that the SNCF couldn't buy a single acre. Rather than litigating, it has abandoned the project.Andre Perettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-39468398947735968712009-10-09T14:17:52.609-07:002009-10-09T14:17:52.609-07:00@ Anon
Maybe her real name is Jack.
Using the &q...@ Anon<br /><br />Maybe her real name is Jack.<br /><br />Using the "Anonymous" handle is frequently just a method for delivering cheap shots that no one takes seriously. Even "Toys" gets more respect than anons.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-3740985978384575462009-10-09T14:14:52.414-07:002009-10-09T14:14:52.414-07:00"A whole street of entire houses was taken ou..."A whole street of entire houses was taken out in Berkeley to underground BART."<br /><br />This is something that has been pointed out in the past by the Authority. They have stated a number of times, I believe, that tunneling requires more eminent domain than at-grade does.<br /><br />On Tuesday the only real discussion of ED was regarding possible subsidence for the tunnel alignments discussed.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57514779828087186632009-10-09T14:08:58.518-07:002009-10-09T14:08:58.518-07:00Hey Bianca, you're just as anonymous as me unl...Hey Bianca, you're just as anonymous as me unless you put your real name and address. How do we know your name is Bianca?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85278904989017003122009-10-09T14:02:46.532-07:002009-10-09T14:02:46.532-07:00@ Bianca
"A whole street of entire houses wa...@ Bianca<br /><br />"A whole street of entire houses was taken out in Berkeley to underground BART."<br /><br />An excellent point and something surly lost on those similar NIMBY's who seek to tunnel HSR in Palo Alto and tout the Berkeley subway as the epitome of NIMBY victory. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-57555518668518454742009-10-09T12:36:43.259-07:002009-10-09T12:36:43.259-07:00Anonymous at 12:15 said:
CHSRA has to be prudent...Anonymous at 12:15 said: <br /><br /><i>CHSRA has to be prudent, but Kopp and Diridon are neither prudent nor wise.</i><br /><br />I'm not here to defend Kopp and Diridon, but I am so tired of anonymous posters bringing them up like bogeymen. Do you really think that Ron Diridon or Quentin Kopp are going to get involved in the minutiae of negotiations to acquire a single parcel of land every time that happens along the hundreds of miles of route between San Francisco and Los Angeles? That is awfully far down in the weeds for them. <br /><br />And I hate to break it to you, but:<i> <br />if they do resort to eminent domain, they do face political costs and a potentially long legal battle which adds very real financial costs to the project.</i><br /><br />Eminent domain proceedings are usually very straightforward. The facts in this scenario look nothing like <i>Kelo</i>. This is a public project, for public purposes, and by the time a property acquisition reaches the eminent domain stage it's too late to do much about it. <br /><br />And while there may be some localized sympathy for homeowners who refuse to negotiate and lose their property through eminent domain, keep in mind that even if the government takes your land they have to compensate you fairly for it. It's not as if the property owners are left with a mortgage but no house. <br /><br />HSR is a statewide project, and it is going to benefit a very large portion of the state's population. It's not clear to me how a scenario where a landowner refuses to negotiate with CHSRA and winds up having their land taken, and paid for, through eminent domain leads to huge political costs. <br /><br />A whole street of entire houses was taken out in Berkeley to underground BART. I'm not noticing any huge political cost from that decision. That is a much larger parcel of land than anything needed along the Caltrain ROW.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52006630761805257652009-10-09T12:24:27.499-07:002009-10-09T12:24:27.499-07:00I mean overall in the greater california experienc...I mean overall in the greater california experience not just as it relates to hsr.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-4766467901416139962009-10-09T12:23:46.929-07:002009-10-09T12:23:46.929-07:00The judges know what's going on and most good ...The judges know what's going on and most good judges are probably sick of it overall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-62755374283863284722009-10-09T12:20:03.155-07:002009-10-09T12:20:03.155-07:00@ Jim
Well, the nice thing is that, as we saw com...@ Jim<br /><br />Well, the nice thing is that, as we saw come out of the Atherton suit, at least the judge in that case was unwilling to delay the project, despite the fact that the plaintiffs prevailed on a few points.<br /><br />I don't see other judges delaying the project, either.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-89042491007704190802009-10-09T12:15:03.833-07:002009-10-09T12:15:03.833-07:00I agree that generous cash offers are the best way...I agree that generous cash offers are the best way to acquire private land, and it doesn't cost that much in the overall budget. CHSRA has to be flexible, however, because if they do resort to eminent domain, they do face political costs and a potentially long legal battle which adds very real financial costs to the project. CHSRA has to be prudent, but Kopp and Diridon are neither prudent nor wise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19915388705724276812009-10-09T12:09:18.673-07:002009-10-09T12:09:18.673-07:00@peter, I'm referring more to any subsequ...@peter, I'm referring more to any subsequent lawsuits than to that one in particular. In other words, if they keep at it for no other reason than trying to block the project in any way they can. I also am not using "frivolous lawsuit" in the legal sense. I'm talking about what we all know is really going on.<br /><br />legalities aside we al know they are just fos. and any of us who have lived in cali for 40 plus years know its the usual drill. Sorry but I'm not willing to overlook the truth of what's going on.<br /><br /><br />in an unrelated but good news story -- there are two very good nominees to the amtrak board on the table, one has been I think a partner in the new york region's oldest law firm and the other one vice president of the words largest real estate firm.<br /><br />This bodes well for amtraks future ability to combine high powered leadership with transit and development. A good combination if you ask me.<br /><br />Combined with amtraks serious goal of being the nations number one provider of hsr services and you can se we are no longer your father's oldsmobile.<br /><br />move over bacon, its sizzlean.<br /><br />Next we will take over the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-52275239312637228992009-10-09T12:02:18.729-07:002009-10-09T12:02:18.729-07:00Rafael makes an excellent point: Eminent domain is...Rafael makes an excellent point: Eminent domain is a last resort. <br /><br />If CHSRA knocks on your door and tells you that they'd like to acquire a strip of your back yard, or even your entire property, that's not eminent domain. And outright purchases of land, at fair value, aren't politically difficult at all. From a simple logistics perspective it's probably cheaper to offer 10 or 20 per cent over market value just to get a deal done quickly than to spend months dickering over it.<br /><br />Eminent domain only comes into play if a property owner really digs in their heels and refuses to sell.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.com