tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post7436582858043341312..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: Innovation PlaceRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-50531880064655636302009-08-22T23:45:16.300-07:002009-08-22T23:45:16.300-07:00No brilliance involved - just the obvious. The Gr...No brilliance involved - just the obvious. The Grapevine is manifestly superior; that's why I-5 is there and not in the Tehachapis.<br /><br />A little analogy: the Tehachapis detour is to the hsr what broad gauge is to BART. Sabotage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-64212828116522454312009-08-21T23:50:00.745-07:002009-08-21T23:50:00.745-07:00When the verdict finally comes in on this project
...<i>When the verdict finally comes in on this project</i><br /><br />"History will prove me right"<br /><br />Just another way of saying "I have no rational or factual basis to further my point, so I'm going to punt this down the road several decades and pretend I was right in the meantime."<br /><br />How about you at least put your name on your prediction? That way the wayback machine will at least capture your brilliant foresight.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-37895631324195866362009-08-21T20:40:00.349-07:002009-08-21T20:40:00.349-07:00anon - based on what?anon - based on what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38448219537224341792009-08-21T20:30:55.740-07:002009-08-21T20:30:55.740-07:00When the verdict finally comes in on this project ...When the verdict finally comes in on this project - disappointing and underperforming - the experts will wish they had had the cojones to mine the Grapevine instead. A private entrepreneur would never touch the Tehachapis route, suitable only for freight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-35139831121217305632009-08-21T15:00:08.096-07:002009-08-21T15:00:08.096-07:00All you have to do is ask wht route would your typ...<i>All you have to do is ask wht route would your typical motorist from Fresno or Bakersfield take to LA.</i><br /><br />Which is why I wouldn't ask a typical motorist to design my HSR system. I mean really, that's your big example of how HSR is poorly designed? That the track isn't straight in places?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-70081876597618037012009-08-21T13:21:01.006-07:002009-08-21T13:21:01.006-07:00@ anon @ 10:22am -
trains are limited to 3.5% gra...@ anon @ 10:22am -<br /><br />trains are limited to 3.5% gradient, so it's much harder to build a rail line across the grapevine that crosses both the Garlock and San Andreas faults at grade. In fact, an extensive computer-aided workshop held by CHSRA yielded precisely one such alignment and it ran close to the Lake Castaic wildlife refuge.<br /><br />There were literally hundreds of viable variations across the Tehachapis and through Soledad Canyon. Considering the currently available information on the meter-scale geology in the entire area is imperfect, the preferred route represents lower tunneling risk.<br /><br />No doubt LA county did also push for a route via Palmdale, but geology was the primary factor.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-20387538018097442612009-08-21T10:22:54.580-07:002009-08-21T10:22:54.580-07:00mea culpa. I guess it was the video simulation th...mea culpa. I guess it was the video simulation that was released to the media, which ran it all the time. It depicted a trench.<br /><br />The "berm" will be seen and heard for miles. Palo Alto et al are right to oppose it. The harder the CHSRA pushes for aerial the greater the opposition.<br /><br />Overall public apprehension about the hsr will grow as its flaws in its plan become obvious to the ordinary voter. All you have to do is ask wht route would your typical motorist from Fresno or Bakersfield take to LA. Nuff said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-49088777271508886482009-08-21T00:29:12.226-07:002009-08-21T00:29:12.226-07:00i never saw a tv ad for HSR. but all the info w...i never saw a tv ad for HSR. but all the info was avail to the public.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-40379891215802717962009-08-20T17:11:33.325-07:002009-08-20T17:11:33.325-07:00Yeah, I never saw any CHSRA TV ads either, and tho...Yeah, I never saw any CHSRA TV ads either, and thought that CHSRA was prevented from running them. I did see one TV ad that showed a HST that was financed by some concern (can't remember who), but it was talking about the BART proposition and just showed how BART and HSR would interact with each other in the South Bay.Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19499276187900909782009-08-20T14:28:19.349-07:002009-08-20T14:28:19.349-07:00Ever see "Blues Brothers"?
Yes. They sp...<i>Ever see "Blues Brothers"?</i><br /><br />Yes. They spliced footage from multiple takes in order to make the trains look omnipresent, whereas in fact their headways are long, on the order of 15-20 minutes, and don't run at all late at night.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-71466618140620766352009-08-20T13:52:09.622-07:002009-08-20T13:52:09.622-07:00I never saw Prop 1A tv ads showing any type of gra...<i>I never saw Prop 1A tv ads showing any type of grade separation other than trenches.</i><br /><br />What TV ads? <br /><br />And anyway, your whole argument is that nobody told you the peninsula was going to be on a berm?<br /><br />If you're so sure that you've been criminally misled, go ahead and file a lawsuit like the other NIMBYs.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-22159961099219763772009-08-20T13:46:25.793-07:002009-08-20T13:46:25.793-07:00I never saw Prop 1A tv ads showing any type of gra...<i>I never saw Prop 1A tv ads showing any type of grade separation other than trenches</i>.<br /><br />You saw TV ads for Prop 1A? <br /><br /> Who paid for them? <br /><br />CHSRA did not run any ads, they didn't have the budget for it and in any case I believe they are legally precluded from doing so. <br /><br />If there were any prop 1A ads on TV, I missed them. But I'd sure be interested in seeing it now. Can you share a link? <br /><br />Did anyone else here see TV ads for Prop 1A back in 2008? Anyone who isn't posting anonymously? I'd be genuinely interested to know.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-7623343308829040482009-08-20T13:29:53.558-07:002009-08-20T13:29:53.558-07:00I never saw Prop 1A tv ads showing any type of gra...I never saw Prop 1A tv ads showing any type of grade separation other than trenches.<br /><br />That was not by accident. The public hates elevateds because they are noisy and uninviting to put it mildly. Ever see "Blues Brothers"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-58833376925349907622009-08-20T12:47:00.501-07:002009-08-20T12:47:00.501-07:00The UP trench in Reno? As an example of what? How...The UP trench in Reno? As an example of what? How it was built in Reno? That's your "<i>pre-election propaganda</i>"?<br /><br />You go to the CHSRA website, and they have pictures, videos and drawings of HSR at grade, on berms, on bridges, on viaducts, in stations, and yes, in trenches. <br /><br />Go look at Appendix 2-D of the Final Program EIR/EIS. It's dated May 2008 <i>i.e.,</i> well before the election. It's marked as "preliminary" but throughout the length of the Caltrain ROW, the plans were either "at grade" or "retained fill." This document had folks on the Peninsula seriously up in arms complaining that their communities were "going to be divided" by this "wall."Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-38740107762119830522009-08-20T11:32:05.868-07:002009-08-20T11:32:05.868-07:00@ Bianca
The UP trench in downtown Reno. Too bad...@ Bianca<br /><br />The UP trench in downtown Reno. Too bad they didn't erect a Bechtel elevated - we would have had a new definition of godawful. But Reno was not so stupid or feckless as to let that happen.<br /><br />Palo Alto's only strategy that has any chance of success is to flush out CHSRA intransigeance. The latter has no intention of building a tunnel or trench under any circumstance. No matter if PA comes up with the money to pay for it. The sooner the townsfolk recognize this they sooner they can prepare for total war with the CHSRA, which sold out the Peninsula to pander to San Jose and San Francisco.<br /><br />The CHSRA is in irrevocable Big Dig fiasco mode and will not negotiate. The Tehachapis boondoggle underscores the level of chicanery. Unfortunately that also makes the "stop it dead in its tracks" approach the only effective course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-54542686581112436802009-08-20T11:25:59.761-07:002009-08-20T11:25:59.761-07:00open trenches are fugly and loud, cp. Alameda Corr...<i>open trenches are fugly and loud, cp. Alameda Corridor in LA. </i><br /><br />Seriously. I always giggle a little bit when I hear NIMBY's cry for trenches. They've obviously never seen one, or seen one being built.<br /><br /><i>Nobody promised any trenches in the runup to the election.</i><br /><br />Actually, that's not quite true, the CAHSR did show trenches, and they did have maps showing that they would put trenches in, but they never said they were going in everywhere. In fact, you can go see all the same simulations and propoganda on the site today, it's the same as it was. The main "here's a high speed rail in a trench" graphic is (and was) clearly labelled as being through burbank.<br /><br />If they don't put that one in a trench, then you can complain.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-33159017252113838992009-08-20T10:11:18.651-07:002009-08-20T10:11:18.651-07:00I should add that a lot of us were here and heard ...I should add that a lot of us were here and heard people bleating about "Berlin Walls!" and "Dividing our community!!" (when the railroad was there first, hello). <br /><br />The documentation that people based those claims came from the CHSRA, and the CHSRA based those on the kind of berms that were used to achieve the grade separation in San Carlos. <br /><br />Nobody promised any trenches in the runup to the election. <br /><br />Just because you want to believe that doesn't make it so.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-53428702724930990042009-08-20T10:07:50.468-07:002009-08-20T10:07:50.468-07:00Anon @9:56 said:
Open trenches are vastly prefer...Anon @9:56 said: <br /><br /><i>Open trenches are vastly preferable to elevateds - that's why they were depicted in the pre-election propaganda</i>.<br /><br />I call BS on this. <br /><br />An anonymous poster drops by making that kind of allegation, without proof. Not buying it. <br /><br />Show us an example, anonymous, or it didn't happen.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-60654861159153995812009-08-20T09:59:46.405-07:002009-08-20T09:59:46.405-07:00Note also that CHSRA's first cut for cost esti...<i>Note also that CHSRA's first cut for cost estimation purposes (map, details) calls for the HSR tracks to run in a long trench/tunnel between San Tomas Expressway and San Jose Diridon.<br /><br />If I were Atherton/Menlo Park/Palo Alto, I'd question CHSRA on its reasons for this decision. The Santa Clara - San Jose Diridon section does need to accommodate Caltrain, UPRR/Amtrak/ACE, HSR and BART.</i><br /><br />Doesn't Rod Diridon live near that neighborhood where the trench is proposed? Mr. Double-standard.Board Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-81088218993534976582009-08-20T09:56:30.444-07:002009-08-20T09:56:30.444-07:00Open trenches are vastly preferable to elevateds -...Open trenches are vastly preferable to elevateds - that's why they were depicted in the pre-election propaganda.<br /><br />If you would want to get a good grasp on what ungly and noisy means in the real world just go hand out under a BART elevated for a while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-91805352387151819232009-08-20T09:33:43.901-07:002009-08-20T09:33:43.901-07:00@ Max -
open trenches are fugly and loud, cp. Ala...@ Max -<br /><br />open trenches are fugly and loud, cp. Alameda Corridor in LA. The only reasons not to cover them would be diesel exhaust and the cost of the lid. Given the high value of property in the SF peninsula, the extra cost of a lid would definitely be worth it - doubly so if it's the ground floor of a building above the tracks.<br /><br />An at-grade/elevated solution would be cheap to construct as such. However, the time required to fend off reverse condemnation lawsuits - which will be filed in any event - could lead to delays in construction and start of operations.<br /><br />Of course, reverse condemnation cuts both ways. PCJPB could sue homeowners if they prevent the board from exploiting its primary asset, the ROW.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-8342005313703671252009-08-19T23:31:32.609-07:002009-08-19T23:31:32.609-07:00i don't like the name "innovation place&q...i don't like the name "innovation place" thought. stupid. How bout "tomorrowland"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90721068687916585062009-08-19T23:29:27.815-07:002009-08-19T23:29:27.815-07:00or keep it at grade with landscaped soundwalls and...or keep it at grade with landscaped soundwalls and use underpasses and close some streetsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80750304001861983902009-08-19T22:33:05.834-07:002009-08-19T22:33:05.834-07:00@Rafael
Thanks for the info! Plenty for me to rea...@Rafael<br /><br />Thanks for the info! Plenty for me to read. However my off-the-cuff reaction is: if your choices are<br /><br />1. Figure out how to make 15 miles of 4-track wide aerial pleasing to NIMBYs<br />2. Figure out how to make 15 miles of 4-track tunnel affordable<br />3. Figure out how to prevent some clogging drains, and deal with some "inconvenience" in <i>open</i> trench construction (I'm suggesting that would be the cheapest option)<br /><br />it is not obvious to me that #3 is the totally impossible option that should be discarded first. But I will go read the material.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301718350024298052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-88838485019884499922009-08-19T18:53:07.437-07:002009-08-19T18:53:07.437-07:00@ Max, WarrenT -
here are links to earlier posts ...@ Max, WarrenT -<br /><br />here are links to earlier posts on tunnel/covered trench construction in the SF peninsula.<br /><br />CAHSR blog:<br /><a href="http://cahsr.blogspot.com/2009/03/pandoras-box.html" rel="nofollow">Pandora's Box</a><br /><a href="http://cahsr.blogspot.com/2009/03/pandoras-box.html" rel="nofollow">La Vitrine</a><br /><br />Caltrain-HSR Compatibility blog:<br /><a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/04/joy-of-tunnels.html" rel="nofollow">The Joy of Tunnels</a><br /><a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/07/threading-san-mateo-narrows.html" rel="nofollow">Threading the San Mateo Narrows</a><br /><a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/08/bart-berkeley-tunnel-saga.html" rel="nofollow">The Berekeley BART Tunnel Saga</a><br /><br />The biggest problems with covered trench construction are related to:<br /><br />(a) gravity-drained conduits such as creeks, storm drains and quite possibly, sewer mains. There are a lot of them both at the surface and underground throughout the peninsula, all crossing the Caltrain corridor. Rerouting them under the tracks should be possible but such bypasses can clog up in certain conditions.<br /><br />(b) the need to maintain railroad service during excavation from the surface. It might be possible to construct two underground tracks at a time, leaving one operational on the surface. The constrained space makes excavation more difficult, but it also avoids the construction of temporary shoofly tracks.<br /><br />(c) construction nuisance is high all along the trench section, with earth having to be moved out and rebar + concrete moved in. This is also true for retained embankments above ground. However, covered trenches have to be dug almost twice as deep (~30') and need concrete foundations, center walls and lids in addition to the side walls. The greater depth means the descent and ascent sections have to be longer (max gradient 1% for heavy freight, 3.5% for non-compliant EMU passenger trains).<br /><br />(d) the additional work described under (c) means covered trenches are much more expensive than aerials. Bored tunnels are usually - though not always - even more expensive per mile.<br /><br />---<br /><br />For reference: the primary reason the BART extension to SFO went so badly over budget was that San Mateo county decided late in the game it wanted the entire section underground, an issue triggered by the war cemetaries in Colma.<br /><br />The delta was paid for in part by deferring the BART extension to Fremont Warm Springs at the southern edge of Alameda county. In a quid pro quo, San Mateo county now has to defer the rehabilitation of the old Dumbarton rail bridge, which was partially destroyed in a <a href="http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/news/1998_Jan_7.FIRE.html" rel="nofollow">suspicious fire</a> in 1998.<br /><br />SMCTA has also had to severely cut bus service, incl. the Millbrae/SFO shuttle, to pay for putting the SFO extension underground.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Note also that CHSRA's first cut for cost estimation purposes (<a href="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/google-map/" rel="nofollow">map</a>, <a href="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/images/chsr/20080529174757_CalTrain%20Corridor.pdf" rel="nofollow">details</a>) calls for the HSR tracks to run in a long trench/tunnel between San Tomas Expressway and San Jose Diridon.<br /><br />If I were Atherton/Menlo Park/Palo Alto, I'd question CHSRA on its reasons for this decision. The Santa Clara - San Jose Diridon section does need to accommodate Caltrain, UPRR/Amtrak/ACE, HSR and BART. There are also the I-880 overpass and Caltrain's CEMOF facility to contend with. BART is supposed to run at grade between SJ Diridon and the huge Newhall yard in Santa Clara.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.com