tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post8582958075983139898..comments2023-10-30T09:03:07.163-07:00Comments on California High Speed Rail Blog: CHSRA Staff Recommendation for Phase 2 Stimulus FundingRobert Cruickshankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06906581839066570472noreply@blogger.comBlogger102125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-19435146156502312822009-09-27T02:34:17.330-07:002009-09-27T02:34:17.330-07:00Rafael:
"Only if they actually build more tha...Rafael:<br />"Only if they actually build more than 24 stations.<br /><br />Notice how they never mention Irvine these days? Hanford/Visalia/Tulare may get canned. City of Industry is uncertain. CHSRA has kept open the option of no station at all between Millbrae and San Jose."<br /><br />I'd recommend canning City of Industry and Norwalk, both of which can be served comfortably by local commuter trains *from stations at either side of them*. In other words you can change trains with no back-tracking. That puts the number down to 24 (since Altamont stations are not served by "high speed trains").neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-86337026963502847612009-09-27T00:33:43.508-07:002009-09-27T00:33:43.508-07:00Rafael wrote:
"Considering they're alrea...Rafael wrote:<br /><br />"Considering they're already up to 24 without Irvine and the politically motivated one at Hanford/Visalia/Tulare, it's not clear to me how they intend to add stations for Pleasanton/Livermore and Tracy in the overlay."<br /><br />Those stations won't be served by high-speed trains. Simple! Read your legislation more carefully! They can have as many stations as they like which are *not* served by high-speed trains, I think! :-)neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-45678645570336442012009-09-27T00:32:31.777-07:002009-09-27T00:32:31.777-07:00- Fresno downtown is painfully controversial. I g...- Fresno downtown is painfully controversial. I guess they're putting it in the northern half. Hope they can resolve those design problems fast.<br /><br />- Merced and Bakersfield seem not nearly as picky and the problem of "tying in" the greenfields segments on either side isn't so bad. Bakersfield-Fresno looks like it will be the test track and be in place first. Given its location along the BNSF ROW, it will probably get to host a few San Joaquins too!<br /><br />- Bakersfield-LA should really be absolute top priority. They've already worked out a speculative route for the tunnels. However, I suppose it doesn't fit into phase 2 ARRA and would also be very very expensive, so more than they're likely to get. <br /><br />- LA-Bakersfield should be subdivided: LA Union Station (which will probably be built as part of LA-Anaheim), the Metrolink corridor which will have four tracks up past Burbank, and the part with all the tunnels. Since the Metrolink corridor is pretty much settled in design, this is a sensible way to break it up.<br /><br />- In order to make the darn thing useful, that Metrolink corridor should be finished first. Satisfying the requirements of Metrolink, freight, and HSR in one trench is a bit of work, but would give immediate safety benefits, and speed benefits to Metrolink, so it's a great target for early impelementation.<br />- Design-build may not be appropriate for the Bakersfield-Burbank section, and it will involve serious ROW acquisition. I hope they're continuing to work on the EIS for this in detail.neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-13064709779570601992009-09-23T12:28:58.698-07:002009-09-23T12:28:58.698-07:00The stimulus package list was hashed out political...The stimulus package list was hashed out politically in the backroom. The decision had already been worked out. Rarely does a public meeting involve actual debate and open discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-74774987338767545862009-09-23T12:20:03.866-07:002009-09-23T12:20:03.866-07:00The Authority board meeting just concluded. The s...The Authority board meeting just concluded. The stimulus funding proposal passed unanimously with no changes.Morris Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-43778119199911052422009-09-23T07:53:20.631-07:002009-09-23T07:53:20.631-07:00do what you want. Im moving to india.do what you want. Im moving to india.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-1983887628237653962009-09-23T03:33:15.697-07:002009-09-23T03:33:15.697-07:00@ jim -
the point of the Coast Daylight is to pro...@ jim -<br /><br />the point of the Coast Daylight is to provide an stopgap service between the Bay Area and LA until HSR goes live and, to improve rail service for towns along the coast corridor. It's still going to be dog-slow but it'll have a fighting chance of being at least vaguely punctual. Still we're talking about one train per day here.<br /><br />Giving Amtrak California a very lucrative long-term contract to operate HSR might make sense if the state wants to cross-subsidize the existing standard-speed services, but we have to get the system built first. The plan of record calls for private investors and for them, cross subsidies are unpalatable.<br /><br />Btw, if you want a <a href="http://royal-palaceonwheel.com/" rel="nofollow">spa car</a>, you have to go to India.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-86574290240587359422009-09-23T02:26:35.004-07:002009-09-23T02:26:35.004-07:00Alon, you miss the point (again). Intra-regional t...<i>Alon, you miss the point (again). Intra-regional traffic is far more significant and dense/heavy than inter-regional traffic.</i><br /><br />HSR doesn't do a good job serving that traffic. The Tokaido Shinkansen is mostly used for getting from Tokyo to Osaka, not from Tokyo to Yokohama or Osaka to Kyoto.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-16540115224910824522009-09-23T00:50:03.431-07:002009-09-23T00:50:03.431-07:00and massage!and massage!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-55439684469199337112009-09-23T00:01:04.474-07:002009-09-23T00:01:04.474-07:00@fred martin - it doesnt matter how free flowing t...@fred martin - it doesnt matter how free flowing the traffic is on I-5, it takes too long to drive to socal. period and its exhausting. why would any one drive when they can be kicking back luxuriating on comfy train having cocktails and nosh.<br /><br />hey will their be a spa car? there should be a spa car.<br /><br />You could get new do and some fresh botox and arrive in Hollywood fresh and ready for the Oscars.<br /><br />this will be a big hit. me can has spa car please?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-65421984420550968662009-09-22T23:56:41.819-07:002009-09-22T23:56:41.819-07:001) The Sac-Bay market is served by capitol corrid...1) The Sac-Bay market is served by capitol corridor thats why its ok to send HSRhsr via Pacheco.<br /><br />2) Few people ride the entire 3 hour length. It serves people in parts in a reasonable time - there's and ARN-SAC crowd, there's a SAC-MTZ-EMY crowd and there's an Eastbay-SJC crowd. None of those trips require high speed.<br /><br />3) Anon - there's a lot of service planned for what you call Hoovervilles because the majority of the state's new population growth will be in those places.<br /><br />4) rafael - per your solutions posted earlier I agree with 99 percent of it as the perfect solution with one additional deal,<br /><br />per the coast daylight, give me, i mean amtrak, the hsr operating contract, and I'll scratch the daylight idea altogether, and instead give gilroy to CCJPA as you suggested, take it all the way down to SNS, and bring one Surfliner per day up to SNS with a timed connection eliminating the need for the Daylight....<br /><br />then use the tbt with the brightly lit, moving sidewalk tunnels etc, and knock yourself out with condos and such at 4th to get the cash.<br /><br />...and I'll give you the greens and the yellows for Park Place and the Railroads....<br /><br />its the perfect compromise---Im in.<br /><br />( as much i oppose SF growth - I don't mind it when its funneled to the proper places and keeps the new people over there instead of trying to destroy our existing neighborhoods... so I can get behind rafaels plan. Its a reasonable compromise. good work. lets get it done. <br /><br />--per the comments about the illegals and "toys" previous raisin garlic comments.<br /><br />That is why the Fresno-Gilroy IS useful, because you can get the farm workers to pick the grapes and the garlic on the same day via HSR, and if they put an Obamacare hospital train in service they can get free high speed health care on board en route to save time and then add a Wells Fargo Car and you can very quickly take the tax money from the PA Nimby's directly to the IRS building in downtown Fresno while destroying the Nimby's azaleas at the same time! See it all works out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-24930237077000575832009-09-22T23:06:43.903-07:002009-09-22T23:06:43.903-07:00Alon, you miss the point (again). Intra-regional...Alon, you miss the point (again). Intra-regional traffic is far more significant and dense/heavy than inter-regional traffic. Long-distance traffic is a very small share of total traffic. Long-distance car traffic is marginal and a speck compared to urban and regional car traffic.<br /><br />Just as the air market is limited, there's not that much car traffic on the I-5 in the Central Valley to be diverted to HSR. In comparison, the wider I-80 between the Bay Area and Sacramento and the wider I-580 across the Altamont Pass carry vastly more traffic. Furthermore, CA-152 across the Pacheco Pass doesn't carry much car traffic at all.<br /><br />I-5 in the Central Valley is typically free-flowing at 80mph. Congestion is very rare. The only congestion that occurs on the I-5 in the Central Valley is due to the lumbering truck traffic or if an accident shuts down one or both of the two lanes. Compare that to the frequently severe congestion on the I-80 and I-580 between the Bay Area and the Central Valley/Sacramento. CHSRA has misunderstood the problem of traffic.Fred Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-77527724642691240712009-09-22T22:32:50.249-07:002009-09-22T22:32:50.249-07:00FWIW, in a gravity model, the "Cost" val...FWIW, in a gravity model, the "Cost" value is door to door cost + value of time*door to door travel time<br /><br />For biz travelers, use a number like $50/hr.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-25018941930401093202009-09-22T22:19:44.583-07:002009-09-22T22:19:44.583-07:00So HSR will be competing with car traffic primaril...<i>So HSR will be competing with car traffic primarily, but HSR isn't going where the car traffic densities are the highest. Smart people design systems where the people are going.</i><br /><br />HSR is going where car traffic is the easiest to divert. Between SF and Sac, the time bonus for HSR isn't high enough, especially since HSR would go through Dumbarton and Altamont and cars go through Bay Bridge and the Delta; HSR would take 156 miles versus 432 for SF-LA, whereas cars do 88 miles versus 381 miles for LA.<br /><br />The time bonus for HSR is even lower for people whose starting point in the Bay Area is not SF but the East Bay, which would not be well-served without a station in a large population center (i.e. Oakland, which would require a second Transbay Tube).<br /><br />For SF-LA traffic, those issues go the other way. People who live in the East Bay have access to SF via BART going orthogonally rather than in the opposite direction; people who live in the South Bay have access to HSR via SJ. Furthermore, car traffic is worse since LA is more congested than both SF and Sac, and the time bonus HSR has over driving is larger because the distance is larger.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-2671827819909549042009-09-22T21:43:46.346-07:002009-09-22T21:43:46.346-07:00The entire air market between SFO/OAK/SJC and LAX/...The entire air market between SFO/OAK/SJC and LAX/BUR/LGB/ONT/SNA only involves 20 million annual passengers. CHSRA was hyping 117 million annual passengers, so even if they captured 100% of the Bay Area-SoCal air market (50-60% would be optimistic), a huge shortfall is apparent. <br /><br />So HSR will be competing with car traffic primarily, but HSR isn't going where the car traffic densities are the highest. Smart people design systems where the people are going. <br /><br />HSR will never reach 220mph going along the SR99 corridor, a posterchild for low-density sprawl yet with NIMBYs.Fred Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-28064591193883424222009-09-22T19:43:40.234-07:002009-09-22T19:43:40.234-07:00Fred Martin said...
"Actually, Bay Area-Sacra...Fred Martin said...<br />"<i>Actually, Bay Area-Sacramento traffic demand dwarves Bay Area-LA and Sacramento-LA demand. LA is big, but <b><i>it is far away from both the Bay Area and Sacramento</i></b>. Just look at the width of the roads between the regions...<br /><br />This is why Altamont is so important. Another critical strategic mistake by CHSRA.</i>"<br /><br />Yes, because as everyone knows, where 220mph HSR offers a mode shift over 125mph HSR is not routes that are 5 hours by 125mph HSR and 3 hours or less by Express HSR, but rather routes that are under 1 hour by 125mph HSR.<br /><br />Why, that reduction from 45 minutes to 35 minutes will double or treble total rail passenger ridership between the Bay and Sacramento.<br /><br />And, yes, I am being sarcastic. Why do you ask?BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-68430489685516506902009-09-22T18:43:25.403-07:002009-09-22T18:43:25.403-07:00Actually, Bay Area-Sacramento traffic demand dwarv...<i>Actually, Bay Area-Sacramento traffic demand dwarves Bay Area-LA and Sacramento-LA demand. LA is big, but it is far away from both the Bay Area and Sacramento. Just look at the width of the roads between the regions...</i><br /><br />Are you including air traffic?<br /><br />Anyway, for HSR ridership modeling, the ridership seems to be proportional to (p_a)^0.9 * (p_b)^0.9 / c^2, where p_a and p_b are the metro populations served and c is the cost of travel, which is somewhat less than linear in distance.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-76085335192515817982009-09-22T18:33:56.411-07:002009-09-22T18:33:56.411-07:00Palo Alto and Atherton whiners- Even I, an ardent ...Palo Alto and Atherton whiners- Even I, an ardent HSR naysayer and REALLY SICK of your incessant whining about Altamont.<br /><br />Face it, you were naive and chose an alternate strategy that almost nobody supported except 3 rinky dink towns. Altamont does nothing for San Mateo, Burlingame, Willow Glen or anybody south of Palo Alto. It is not wanted and thats why you got no traction with your derail efforts. Grow upBay Area Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807091317788242756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-90467111764141888202009-09-22T18:31:36.648-07:002009-09-22T18:31:36.648-07:00Alon, you have it backwards.
Actually, Bay Area-S...Alon, you have it backwards.<br /><br />Actually, Bay Area-Sacramento traffic demand dwarves Bay Area-LA and Sacramento-LA demand. LA is big, but it is far away from both the Bay Area and Sacramento. Just look at the width of the roads between the regions...<br /><br />This is why Altamont is so important. Another critical strategic mistake by CHSRA.Fred Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-17978305186556493672009-09-22T18:23:28.289-07:002009-09-22T18:23:28.289-07:00This is why people are angry over the selection of...<i>This is why people are angry over the selection of Pacheco. Altamont is a necessity for Bay Area - Sacramento HSR.</i><br /><br />But Bay Area-Sacramento traffic demand is dwarfed by LA-Bay Area and LA-Sacramento demand.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-80381967953418043792009-09-22T17:20:45.492-07:002009-09-22T17:20:45.492-07:00@ BruceMcF
Altamont and Capitol Corridor have a d...@ BruceMcF<br /><br />Altamont and Capitol Corridor have a different set of circumstances. <br /><br />A new Altamont alignment would only have to share ROW with UP inside Tracy, Livermore, Pleasanton. There appears to be enough room to lay down 2 dedicated tracks, the rest of the ROW would probably be new. <br /><br />Capitol Corridor is quite a bit harder to improve. The State has spent several hundred million in improvements for UP's corridor, but there's only so much we can improve by sharing tracks with heavy freight trains. The speed mismatch prevents 125 MPH rapid rail.<br /><br />A new rail crossing across the Carquinez Straight to Vallejo, and re-joining the main line to Sacramento, with dedicated tracks could alleviate quite a bit of congestion. Most areas of the line could be expanded if we have the will to do it, the problem is in Oakland. <br /><br />Specifically the ROW through Oakland's waterfront and Jack London Square area is so narrow and encroached upon, there's no room to expand beyond the 2 tracks there and condemning would have too much impact. Heck they haven't even grade separated, probably because of the "community impact." Nevermind the impacts of constant horn blasting.<br /><br />http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=110844227969377274200.000474329e6b514cdc4c1&ll=37.795831,-122.279098&spn=0.012039,0.021179&z=16<br />http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=110844227969377274200.00047432d6f96d50ea805&ll=37.793915,-122.274249&spn=0,359.978821&z=16&layer=c&cbll=37.795394,-122.276732&panoid=yyJVWIjtTZ8MP-mbcCB8sw&cbp=12,242.85,,0,5.27<br /><br />Fixing this would require shutting that area down, and do cut and cover to add more tracks and underground them. Or a new alignment/bypass in/along I-880/I-980 might work as well. Either way, this area is a showstopper to improving this corridor.<br /><br />@ Rafael<br /><br />Re legal memos: <br /><br />Of course they're not the same thing. I never meant to imply that, but the comparison, of using legal memos to justify what might not be allowed/authorized under the law, is apt. <br /><br />Re Stations: <br /><br />If more than 24 really isn't permitted, then they're doing some bait-and-switch nonsense. That's pretty lame. They shouldn't say cities getting a station when they can't under the law right now. It's possible to add them later on as in-fill stations, if the law is revised.<br /><br />Re Altamont: <br /><br />This is why people are angry over the selection of Pacheco. Altamont is a necessity for Bay Area - Sacramento HSR. It would be dumb to route them through Pacheco. And there's enormous amounts of traffic between these regions that could be served. Simply "upgrading ACE" doesn't mean much, when your dependent on a windy, single track, heavy freight line. <br /><br />A real line requires dedicated, electrified, grade sep'd 2 track, and probably some decent tunnel sections in this area. CHSRA basically said they'd do both Altamont and Pacheco as a compromise. <br /><br />If that's just lip service or they fail to deliver, Bay Area and Sac would rightly be angry. It would be pathetic if at full build out and tens of billions spent, people couldn't take a direct HST between those 2 regions. It'd be faster to get from Downtown SF to Downtown LA. That's just sad. Despite their earlier endorsement, SNCF wouldn't have done this.<br /><br />You're right that Fremont/UC - SJ is a tough segment to do, what with BART to SJ foreclosing on one ROW, and Alviso line being in wetlands and special permissions likely needed to expand that. Worst case scenario could be aerials down I-880, assuming we're serious about HSR in the East Bay.<br /><br />But, it seems the CHSRA is really in the business of selling lip service, not meeting the needs of the state.Samsonianhttp://sjsamson86.at.gmail.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-8522608865606054822009-09-22T16:10:27.432-07:002009-09-22T16:10:27.432-07:00Gilroy to Fresno is indeed useless -- now, and in ...Gilroy to Fresno is indeed useless -- now, and in the future.<br /><br />San Jose to Stockton would have been *incredibly* useful, which is why Kopp and his corrupt buddies killed it off.<br /><br />More cost, less result. It's not just a bad idea, it's the law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-85720015835875197562009-09-22T15:13:49.683-07:002009-09-22T15:13:49.683-07:00@ Samsonian -
"like Bush Admin lawyers writi...@ Samsonian -<br /><br />"like Bush Admin lawyers writing legal memos to justify torture"<br /><br />I don't think there's any moral equivalence here. Legally, an opinion by the California AG is not at all the same thing as a ruling by a judge.<br /><br />"[Is CHSRA] in violation of the law?"<br /><br />Only if they actually build more than 24 stations.<br /><br />Notice how they never mention Irvine these days? Hanford/Visalia/Tulare may get canned. City of Industry is uncertain. CHSRA has kept open the option of no station at all between Millbrae and San Jose.<br /><br />Re Altamont: CHSRA can't ignore it because AB3034 specifies it as a potential HSR corridor. However, the sale of state bonds for <i>construction</i> can only be authorized if at least matching non-state funds are secured.<br /><br />Neither the federal government nor private investors are going to pay for two mountain crossings out of the Bay Area, so expect CHSRA to let Altamont wither on the vine if it secures a right of way between San Jose and Gilroy.<br /><br />Without a viable right of way for dedicated HSR tracks between Union City/Fremont and San Jose Diridon, this will become a separate project to upgrade the Altamont Commuter Express, which is based on FRA-compliant diesel equipment. full grade separation and higher top speed aren't essential, lower <i>line haul</i> times are. So are improved punctuality and increased frequency.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-81463948984249733412009-09-22T15:02:32.968-07:002009-09-22T15:02:32.968-07:00Samsonian said...
"there needs to be a connec...Samsonian said...<br />"<i>there needs to be a connection to provide access to Oakland and to enable Bay Area - Sacramento trains.<br />...<br />The Capitol Corridor is a different corridor, and it's also weighed down by UP.</i>"<br /><br />But so is Altamont. And the Capital Corridor has existing services, so if a 125mph Regional HSR corridor is pursued as a series of incremental upgrades, each upgrade improves performance or reduces trip speed. Once it hits 125mph, it'll be under an hour Sacramento to Oakland.BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4263762637946594105.post-36773760905050495142009-09-22T14:52:41.787-07:002009-09-22T14:52:41.787-07:00Looks like Uncle Walter has gone off his meds agai...Looks like Uncle Walter has gone off his meds again...Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.com